# Vaping saves lives - regulation should keep that in mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2017, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201 "2017-10-18T07:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/62 "2019-08-24T02:44:23Z")
It’s coool, just like smoking was when I was a kid. But for fuck’s sake, adults, if you’re looking for a nicotine alternative, use the gum or the patch. ---
**Author:** ![Doug\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b5ac83/32.png) [@Doug\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doug_K)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/63 "2019-08-24T02:57:46Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Maybe not. . . > [State health officials report vaping-related death, warn of dangerous symptoms](https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20190823/state-health-officials-report-vaping-related-death-warn-of-dangerous-symptoms) > > To be fair, it’s not known at this point whether the death was caused by vaping or by what was vaped There’s also this: (warning: satire) [FDA Investigating Link Between Vaping, Looking Like A Total Cheese Bag](https://babylonbee.com/news/fda-investigating-link-between-vaping-looking-like-a-total-cheese-bag) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/64 "2019-08-24T07:00:24Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > It’s coool, just like smoking was when I was a kid. But for fuck’s sake, adults, if you’re looking for a nicotine alternative, use the gum or the patch. If it is vaping that lets you _quit smoking_, then go for it. One death, vs 500000. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/65 "2019-08-24T08:37:10Z")
> [@AI\_Proofreader](#): > > Outlawing or heavily restricting drugs such as morphine, amphetamines, and opioids doesn’t lead to decreased usage. Yes, it does. What it does not do is _eliminate_ usage. You get less overall usage (some people are deterred by the illegality, others by difficulty of obtaining the drug and/or expense prior to becoming addicted) but the usage that remains is more damaging. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/66 "2019-08-24T11:16:08Z")
I’m not terribly schooled on the issue but, anecdotally, every damn kid I know vapes and they all think it’s safe. According to FDA, overall tobacco use has increased among teens significantly: > [@](#): > > E-Cigarette use surge led to uptick in overall tobacco use. The significant rise in e-cigarette use among both student populations has resulted in overall tobacco product use increases of 38 percent among high school students and 29 percent among middle school students between 2017 and 2018, negating declines seen in the previous few years. > > This is a cause for concern because tobacco use is the leading cause of preventable disease and death in the United States and because nearly all tobacco products contain nicotine. As adolescent brains are still developing, nicotine exposure during youth and young adulthood can change the way the brain works, leading to a lifetime of addiction and, in some cases, causing long-lasting effects such as increased impulsivity and mood disorders.5 Studies also find teens who use e-cigarettes have an increased risk of trying combustible cigarettes. [https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/youth-and-tobacco/2018-nyts-data-startling-rise-youth-e-cigarette-use](https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/youth-and-tobacco/2018-nyts-data-startling-rise-youth-e-cigarette-use) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/67 "2019-08-24T12:13:46Z")
> [@Doug\_K](#): > > There’s also this: (warning: satire) > > [FDA Investigating Link Between Vaping, Looking Like A Total Cheese Bag](https://babylonbee.com/news/fda-investigating-link-between-vaping-looking-like-a-total-cheese-bag) [Spinoff thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21823125). ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/68 "2019-08-24T14:47:24Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > I’m not terribly schooled on the issue but, anecdotally, every damn kid I know vapes and they all think it’s safe. Chronic lung problems years down the road? No, not me. And I can quit anytime I want. If this truly is a situation where vaping is the Big Solution for smoking cessation (and the jury is still out on that), then the vaping companies (including tobacco giants who’ve gotten into the market in a major way) should have no problem limiting access to prescription only. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/69 "2019-08-24T18:46:52Z")
Does anyone think there is more than a lottery winner’s chance at winning of vaping being _more_ dangerous than smoking? Fundamentally, vape smoke is primarily 2 much less harmful (than cigarette smoke) ingredients. Most of these possibly toxic compounds are in relative small amounts, compared to a lungful of burning paper and tar. Even chewing tobacco turns out to have half the death rate from smoking. I would assume the limiting case - the worst case, the perfect storm of unexpected health consequences - would put the risk of vaping at somewhere less than that of chewing tobacco. At **least** half the risk of smoking, probably more like 5-10% like a hundred credible papers on the subject tend to estimate. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/70 "2019-08-24T19:43:53Z")
> [@KidCharlemagne](#): > > I’m not terribly schooled on the issue but, anecdotally, every damn kid I know vapes and they all think it’s safe. According to FDA, overall tobacco use has increased among teens significantly: > > [https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/youth-and-tobacco/2018-nyts-data-startling-rise-youth-e-cigarette-use](https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/youth-and-tobacco/2018-nyts-data-startling-rise-youth-e-cigarette-use) Sure, but I have heard that many more adults are quitting using vaping. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/71 "2019-08-24T19:58:09Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Does anyone think there is more than a lottery winner’s chance at winning of vaping being _more_ dangerous than smoking? … The comparison for the many many kids who are now vaping is not between all of them smoking or vaping. It is between a very small and up until the vaping explosion long term decreasing number of kids and young adults being smokers (with that small number at long term high health risk), and the same or it seems MORE becoming smokers as a consequence of vaping and also a new overwhelming majority, perhaps even a true order of magnitude more being exposed to the more moderate but still very real health risk harms of vaping itself as well. In that comparison vaping is a huge net harm. The argument that vaping can help successful cigarette smoking cessation better than gum or patches is reasonable, but if vaping is then to be an ongoing habit, not quit itself later, then its longterm risks compared to those methods need to be better understood, and flavors and overall marketing that appeal to children cannot be allowed. Serious efforts to prevent this new explosion of addiction in children and young adults shuld be made. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/72 "2019-08-24T20:03:00Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The comparison for the many many kids who are now vaping is not between all of them smoking or vaping. It is between a very small and up until the vaping explosion long term decreasing number of kids and young adults being smokers (with that small number at long term high health risk), and the same or it seems MORE becoming smokers as a consequence of vaping and also a new overwhelming majority, perhaps even a true order of magnitude more being exposed to the more moderate but still very real health risk harms of vaping itself as well. > > In that comparison vaping is a huge net harm. > > The argument that vaping can help successful cigarette smoking cessation better than gum or patches is reasonable, but if vaping is then to be an ongoing habit, not quit itself later, then its longterm risks compared to those methods need to be better understood, and flavors and overall marketing that appeal to children cannot be allowed. Serious efforts to prevent this new explosion of addiction in children and young adults shuld be made. Yes, if that is true. But what we need is to find the facts- is vaping getting more kids hooked (who then start tobacco) or is it letting more smokers quit? However, i certainly agree that studies and programs designed to stop kids from vaping should be pursued. I am not sure about laws designed to ban vaping, however. Lets ban cigarettes first. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/73 "2019-08-24T20:08:58Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Fundamentally, vape smoke is primarily 2 much less harmful (than cigarette smoke) ingredients. Most of these possibly toxic compounds are in relative small amounts, compared to a lungful of burning paper and tar. At least, that’s the theory… The [recent outbreak of lung injuries](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/danvergano/vaping-death-lung-injury-outbreak) connected to vaping is extremely troubling. It might connected to a particular device, a particular batch of juice, to a particular company, or even to particular “home brew” recipes for vape-juice. More investigation is called for. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/74 "2019-08-24T20:13:36Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > At least, that’s the theory… > > The [recent outbreak of lung injuries](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/danvergano/vaping-death-lung-injury-outbreak) connected to vaping is extremely troubling. It might connected to a particular device, a particular batch of juice, to a particular company, or even to particular “home brew” recipes for vape-juice. More investigation is called for. Still, remember, smoking kills **five hundred thousand** (500,000) Americans a year, **fifty thousand** of them by second hand smoke. There would have to be vapers keeling over in droves to beat that. and there’s no such thing as \*death by second hand vape. \* ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/75 "2019-08-24T20:42:53Z")
The counter is that we don’t want to make vaping to be appealing to non-smokers, as while vaping is safer then smoking, neither is safer then vaping. What we want to do it create a Maxwells Demon, were only smokers will be given easy access to vaping but make it hard for non-smokers to take up vaping (and smoking). One answer seems obvious, make vaping as hard as smoking, thus the smoker is already used to the restrictions so no hinderance in itself, but does raise some barriers to entry for the non-vapor. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/76 "2019-08-24T20:57:38Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The counter is that we don’t want to make vaping to be appealing to non-smokers, as while vaping is safer then smoking, neither is safer then vaping. What we want to do it create a Maxwells Demon, were only smokers will be given easy access to vaping but make it hard for non-smokers to take up vaping (and smoking). One answer seems obvious, make vaping as hard as smoking, thus the smoker is already used to the restrictions so no hinderance in itself, but does raise some barriers to entry for the non-vapor. It is just about harder to vape as it is to smoke. Back a few years ago, I used to vape at work, but it was just me, my sister (who vaped), and my friend who smoked. Vaping indoors wasn’t something that bothered anyone. Now that I have employees, though, vaping is outdoors only, just like smoking. I don’t know how hard it is for a minor to get vaping material, but when I was a minor, it’s not like it was hard to get cigarettes. I’m all for restricting underage sales and use, but, as I’m one of those people whose life may have been saved by vaping, I have a hard time advocating to make it harder to switch. People still take up smoking every day. Why? I dunno. My reason is that I was already addicted living with two chain smoking parents, and so I would actually go through withdrawal whenever I was out or at school until I secured my own supply. As long as people are taking up nicotine, I prefer that they take it up as vaping, for both their health and that of those around them. ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/77 "2019-08-24T20:57:40Z")
My theory is people crank them up too much. I recently had to get a new vape because I couldn’t find batteries for my old one anymore. You can turn the wattage up so high I can’t hit it. At my normal setting, when I exhale, it looks like exhaling on a cold day. Not like the pic in this article. > **[First US death possibly linked to vaping in Illinois: officials](https://nypost.com/2019/08/24/first-us-death-possibly-linked-to-vaping-in-illinois-officials/)** > > E-cigarettes could have claimed their first victim. A user in Illinois has died after being hospitalized with severe respiratory illness, following a vaping session, the Illinois Department of Publ… ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/78 "2019-08-24T21:11:11Z")
> [@dougrb](#): > > My theory is people crank them up too much. I recently had to get a new vape because I couldn’t find batteries for my old one anymore. You can turn the wattage up so high I can’t hit it. At my normal setting, when I exhale, it looks like exhaling on a cold day. Not like the pic in this article. > > [First US death possibly linked to vaping in Illinois: officials](https://nypost.com/2019/08/24/first-us-death-possibly-linked-to-vaping-in-illinois-officials/) It depends on your mix. More VG will make more smoke, in general. I generally prefer a higher VG percentage as it is less harsh on the throat, but I am aware that it makes for more vapor, and take that into account when I use it. Hopefully we will learn more about these deaths and illnesses, but I suspect that it will be from some sort of adulterant in the mix, whether it be intentional or through negligence. This would mean that this news doesn’t make vaping any less inherently safe than reports of e coli outbreaks makes kale any less safe. Still, know where your supply comes from. Vaping is still a new and unregulated industry. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/79 "2019-08-24T22:22:56Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The comparison for the many many kids who are now vaping is not between all of them smoking or vaping. It is between a very small and up until the vaping explosion long term decreasing number of kids and young adults being smokers (with that small number at long term high health risk), and the same or it seems MORE becoming smokers as a consequence of vaping and also a new overwhelming majority, perhaps even a true order of magnitude more being exposed to the more moderate but still very real health risk harms of vaping itself as well. > > In that comparison vaping is a huge net harm. Hang on. Let’s take the limit of your statement. Let’s say vaping is 10% as harmful as smoking. (many estimates are on the order of 5%) Let’s say 100% of Americans start vaping. So this would be the same thing as a U.S. population of 10% smokers…15% of Americans are smokers. So this would be a net reduction in harm. (50% less death and illness from “smoking”) Let’s say vape smoke turns out to have some toxic ingredient that causes long term damage and eventual death. Unlike cigarettes, because combustion isn’t involved, a vape juice maker has far more control into what goes into the product. Only 2 ingredients - the glycol forming the smoke and the nicotine - are essential. So as long as those 2 specific ingredients are not found to be super harmful, it would be possible to reformulate the product to avoid causing harm, if necessary. (licensed manufacturers who document what goes into the product and use pharmaceutical style process controls is an important step forwards) I don’t see a _rational_ claim here that vaping is causing a net harm to public health. You’re going to need more support than vague claims that the stuff might be too harmful or the fact that kids are doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/80 "2019-08-24T23:31:07Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It is just about harder to vape as it is to smoke. Back a few years ago, I used to vape at work, but it was just me, my sister (who vaped), and my friend who smoked. Vaping indoors wasn’t something that bothered anyone. Now that I have employees, though, vaping is outdoors only, just like smoking. If you use a small discrete vape like a Juul, you can basically do it anywhere, as long as you keep the vapor sucked into your lungs and don’t exhale big clouds of it. Nobody will know or care. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/81 "2019-08-24T23:37:58Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > If you use a small discrete vape like a Juul, you can basically do it anywhere, as long as you keep the vapor sucked into your lungs and don’t exhale big clouds of it. Nobody will know or care. I’m the owner, so I like to set a good example for my employees. While I don’t think that second hand vape has any potential for harm, it is not my place to expose people to it, or allow others to do so. I can’t have a no vape policy if I do it myself. That said, I am here by myself sometimes, and I will vape then, where I would never smoke. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201.md?page=5)