# Vaping saves lives - regulation should keep that in mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2017, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201 "2017-10-18T07:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/82 "2019-08-25T13:24:21Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Hang on. Let’s take the limit of your statement. > > Let’s say vaping is 10% as harmful as smoking. (many estimates are on the order of 5%) > > Let’s say 100% of Americans start vaping. So this would be the same thing as a U.S. population of 10% smokers…15% of Americans are smokers. > > So this would be a net reduction in harm. (50% less death and illness from “smoking”) > > Let’s say vape smoke turns out to have some toxic ingredient that causes long term damage and eventual death. Unlike cigarettes, because combustion isn’t involved, a vape juice maker has far more control into what goes into the product. Only 2 ingredients - the glycol forming the smoke and the nicotine - are essential. So as long as those 2 specific ingredients are not found to be super harmful, it would be possible to reformulate the product to avoid causing harm, if necessary. (licensed manufacturers who document what goes into the product and use pharmaceutical style process controls is an important step forwards) > > I don’t see a _rational_ claim here that vaping is causing a net harm to public health. You’re going to need more support than vague claims that the stuff might be too harmful or the fact that kids are doing it. Your analysis has some fundamental flaws. On the plus side of vaping is the increase in those who manage to quit with vaping being easily obtainable and flavored in kiddie appealing tastes above and beyond those who would mange to quit using nicotine gum/patches or vaping only available in less kid-friendly formats and more tightly controlled. How much is that? I accept that it is non-zero but I see no evidence that it is a big number. The rate of decrease in smoking rates among established smokers has not dramatically sped up since vaping has taken off. But let’s be generous, and say that one out of ten of current smokers can manage to quit by vaping with these flavors and marketing who would not otherwise be able to quit. That plus, a fairly small one, is weighed against the numbers of new smokers being created BY vaping and the direct harms of vaping in a much larger number of new users who would otherwise have been doing neither. A huge one. But yes, I could accept controls on marketing and required testing for proof of safety on all ingredients. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/83 "2019-08-25T13:53:06Z")
I am not a big fan of the idea that I’m not allowed to buy cherry vape liquid because kids like cherry flavour. It’s not like all kids vape cherry and adults all vape “tobacco” flavour. I’m sure the idea sounds fine, until they come after your wine coolers. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/84 "2019-08-25T15:05:32Z")
And then they’ll come for your [assault weapons](https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Newest-Shooting-Gun-Toy-Candy_1421676737.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.17.50c671ceBZa25g&s=p)!! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/85 "2019-08-25T15:17:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Your analysis has some fundamental flaws. > > On the plus side of vaping is the increase in those who manage to quit with vaping being easily obtainable and flavored in kiddie appealing tastes above and beyond those who would mange to quit using nicotine gum/patches or vaping only available in less kid-friendly formats and more tightly controlled. > > How much is that? I accept that it is non-zero but I see no evidence that it is a big number. The rate of decrease in smoking rates among established smokers has not dramatically sped up since vaping has taken off. But let’s be generous, and say that one out of ten of current smokers can manage to quit by vaping with these flavors and marketing who would not otherwise be able to quit. > > That plus, a fairly small one, is weighed against the numbers of new smokers being created BY vaping and the direct harms of vaping in a much larger number of new users who would otherwise have been doing neither. A huge one. > > But yes, I could accept controls on marketing and required testing for proof of safety on all ingredients. Well, ok. Hypothetically would you then accept outlawing of manufactured cigarettes? I feel like if the FDA is going to regulate Vapes they should require cigarette companies to adhere to the same standards…which they would instantly and automatically fail. In a world where Vapes are still readily available but smokers have to hand roll each cigarette or find someone who will roll it for them..and you could outlaw sales of tobacco leaf, only purified nicotine can be sold to licensed purchasers…it would force people to switch to a less harmful alternative or find a criminal. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/86 "2019-08-25T15:54:31Z")
CarnalK, you do sound a bit like the NRA in defense against any gun regulations. Did you also defend your right to laugh at Joe the Camel ads in media highly consumed by youth? The nicotine addiction industry has a long done the best they can to implement what they know works, limited only by regulations and settlements: get kids hooked on your drug early by marketing in ways most effective for that target population and you can replace all those customers you lose to early death. For cigarettes controls that worked to help reduce children getting addicted included regulations that controlled those marketing practices. What the industry has been largely restricted from doing with cigarettes they are pulling back out of the playbook for vaping. There need to be better controls of industry practices. Such would NOT be a ban, any more than cigarettes are currently banned because they are under that authority, or improved gun regulations mean guns are grabbed. There has to be a clearer understanding of what these products each contain and what the risks of their vaped consumption are. Marketing practices that disproportionately (not exclusively) appeal to underage potential consumers/addicts, rather than to adults (ideally those trying to quit current tobacco use), must be highly restricted. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/87 "2019-08-25T16:02:16Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Well, ok. Hypothetically would you then accept outlawing of manufactured cigarettes? I feel like if the FDA is going to regulate Vapes they should require cigarette companies to adhere to the same standards…which they would instantly and automatically fail. > > In a world where Vapes are still readily available but smokers have to hand roll each cigarette or find someone who will roll it for them…and you could outlaw sales of tobacco leaf, only purified nicotine can be sold to licensed purchasers…it would force people to switch to a less harmful alternative or find a criminal. No, I would not be in support of such a move. I agree that prohibition rarely works well in comparison to tightly regulated and controlled markets. E-cigarettes have NOT been held up to the same regulatory standards as cigarettes. They should be with a clear and reasoned approach to maximizing their potential benefit in increasing the numbers of current smokers who manage to quit while minimizing the numbers of new nicotine addicts with special attention to reducing youth addiction onset. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/88 "2019-08-25T16:28:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > CarnalK, you do sound a bit like the NRA in defense against any gun regulations. > > Did you also defend your right to laugh at Joe the Camel ads in media highly consumed by youth? > > The nicotine addiction industry has a long done the best they can to implement what they know works, limited only by regulations and settlements: get kids hooked on your drug early by marketing in ways most effective for that target population and you can replace all those customers you lose to early death. For cigarettes controls that worked to help reduce children getting addicted included regulations that controlled those marketing practices. What the industry has been largely restricted from doing with cigarettes they are pulling back out of the playbook for vaping. Oh, come on. I sound like the NRA because I like vaping vanilla strawberry and don’t want it banned? Yes, kids like candy but so do adults. Would you like a ban on fruit flavored alcohol? Is that a bad analogy for some reason? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/89 "2019-08-25T16:59:05Z")
You sound _exactly_ like the NRA because like them you go from “regulation” to bemoaning a “ban”. They’ll pry that vanilla strawberry e-cig from your cold dead lips! Fruit flavored high alcohol beverages packaged and marketed in ways that disproportionately appeal to high school and middle school children? A high alcohol level very sweet fruity alco-pop advertised in media that those populations consume highly? I would similarly support tight regulation of such products and of their marketing strictly enforced. But with much less vigor as alcohol is no where associated with the same level of addiction from casual use as nicotine is. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/90 "2019-08-25T17:35:43Z")
To doublepost, CarnalK, do you think that the FDA was wrong when it [in 2009 banned cigarette flavorings (other than menthol at that time)](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2009/09/25/E9-23144/enforcement-of-general-tobacco-standard-special-rule-for-cigarettes) specifically on the rationale “that flavors make cigarettes more appealing to youth”? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/91 "2019-08-25T17:44:59Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No, I would not be in support of such a move. > > I agree that prohibition rarely works well in comparison to tightly regulated and controlled markets. > > E-cigarettes have NOT been held up to the same regulatory standards as cigarettes. They should be with a clear and reasoned approach to maximizing their potential benefit in increasing the numbers of current smokers who manage to quit while minimizing the numbers of new nicotine addicts with special attention to reducing youth addiction onset. Pretty sure this position is both irrational and pro-death. Not admirable traits for a claimed doctor to have. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/92 "2019-08-25T17:50:54Z")
Add me to the group of people who think it’s absolute bullshit that they try to ban certain flavors because they “deliberately are meant to appeal to children.” It’s TOTAL bullshit. People don’t stop liking those flavors just because they’re adults. Complete and total bullshit…isn’t life enough of a pain in the ass? People need their vices. They need them because adult life is a giant pain in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/93 "2019-08-25T18:15:43Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Pretty sure this position is both irrational and pro-death. Not admirable traits for a claimed doctor to have. Sorry, you’ll have to count me as “pro-death” also, though I’m struggling to see the logic that says encouraging proven methods of smoking cessation while minimizing the number of young people that become nicotine addicts and potentially suffer chronic lung disease is “pro-death”. It puzzles me also that banning flavored vaping products would be harmful to adults. If you’re trying to quit smoking as a lifesaving measure, does it really matter if you get your nicotine in “plain” as opposed to flavored form? ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/94 "2019-08-25T18:30:39Z")
Yeah of course it matters what flavors you can get. If you find flavors you like, you are more likely to stick to the vaping instead of going back to cigarettes. You’ve obviously not spent any time browsing on vaping forums where many people search very hard trying to find a flavor that they like, and with advice of others and through trial and error, finally are able to find a flavor that becomes their go-to vape. That’s one more person who’s inhaling vapor instead of tobacco smoke. Only a cold-blooded technocrat would say, “oh, you’re saving your life, so just be happy with ‘plain’ nicotine instead of a flavor you like.” We’re human beings, we take great pleasure in different tastes and sensations. Jesus Christ, we bust our asses at work, we pay income taxes, we pay car insurance, we pay health insurance, we have to suffer through the political shitshow, our souls are constantly chiseled away at by all of the aggravations of life, don’t we deserve to have fruit flavored nicotine vapor if we want it? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/95 "2019-08-25T18:50:11Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Yeah of course it matters what flavors you can get. If you find flavors you like, you are more likely to stick to the vaping instead of going back to cigarettes. You’ve obviously not spent any time browsing on vaping forums where many people search very hard trying to find a flavor that they like, and with advice of others and through trial and error, finally are able to find a flavor that becomes their go-to vape. That’s one more person who’s inhaling vapor instead of tobacco smoke. > > Only a cold-blooded technocrat would say, “oh, you’re saving your life, so just be happy with ‘plain’ nicotine instead of a flavor you like.” We’re human beings, we take great pleasure in different tastes and sensations. Jesus Christ, we bust our asses at work, we pay income taxes, we pay car insurance, we pay health insurance, we have to suffer through the political shitshow, our souls are constantly chiseled away at by all of the aggravations of life, don’t we deserve to have fruit flavored nicotine vapor if we want it? Exactly. And then DSeid rides in on his horse of ignorance and spouts nonsense that cigarettes are heavily regulated. Yeah, about as “regulated” as slavery was. While I don’t deny that laws apply, some federal agency is rubber stamping the sale of a product that involves inhaling burning combustibles including addictive industrial chemicals and a smoke so deadly it causes cancer in lab animals within weeks. Again, it’s fine if Vapes are regulated - so long as the laws applied to them have the same allowances for deadly smoke as cigarettes. Also DSeid claimed that making cigarettes illegal won’t accomplish anything… while simultaneously claiming that making fruit Vapes illegal is a major step forward. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/96 "2019-08-25T18:54:07Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Well, ok. Hypothetically would you then accept outlawing of manufactured cigarettes? … Sure. And ban smoking in public or homes with children. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/97 "2019-08-25T19:04:30Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I agree that prohibition rarely works well in comparison to tightly regulated and controlled markets. > … Yes, smoking prohibition would work. Look, when they tried booze prohibition, 60-70% of the adult population drank. Now, about 14% of Americans smoke. 1/4 of those who drank. And there werent many substitutes for alcohol. Now we have snus, chaw, snuff, patches, vaping and gum. That 14% have many things they can turn to. \*\*We can ban smoking. \*\* And despite all the blather here about the NRA and Gun Lobby owning politicians, their donations are small potatoes compared to big tobacco. (To be fair, the health and drug industry are the biggest). ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/98 "2019-08-25T19:38:55Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > You sound _exactly_ like the NRA because like them you go from “regulation” to bemoaning a “ban”. They’ll pry that vanilla strawberry e-cig from your cold dead lips! > > Fruit flavored high alcohol beverages packaged and marketed in ways that disproportionately appeal to high school and middle school children? A high alcohol level very sweet fruity alco-pop advertised in media that those populations consume highly? > > I would similarly support tight regulation of such products and of their marketing strictly enforced. But with much less vigor as alcohol is no where associated with the same level of addiction from casual use as nicotine is. What exactly is the difference between a fruity flavour geared at kids rather than adults? It’s not like there’s a cartoon rabbit on the label. In my time in grade 7-12, I don’t think I ever saw a kid smoking menthols, btw. Those “wine tipped” cigars was the most flavored thing I saw. Those things may be to entice kids, but they make up a small part of the market. Sweeter vape juice is like 80% of the market. Banning one is not the sme as the other. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/99 "2019-08-25T20:24:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > What exactly is the difference between a fruity flavour geared at kids rather than adults? It’s not like there’s a cartoon rabbit on the label. [Maybe just a Stormtrooper or two.](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQO6ZO3BaG0d3iLwyk948dYp3xoFPSbti5bl5qkHNF5iDcq6XHPUg) But I actually agree with your overall point. A lot of marketing towards adults these days is functionally indistinguishable from marketing towards kids. I don’t have any problem at all believing that the impetus behind putting a Star Wars character on a box of vape fluid wasn’t, “Kids think Star Wars is cool,” it was “I and all my adult friends think Star Wars is cool.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/100 "2019-08-25T20:33:20Z")
**SamuelA** , I’ll have you remember that my steed also vapes THC … I never go anywhere without my high horse. As to the need of the flavors … **Lamoral** is claiming that the flavors and enjoying the sweetums goodness is a key part of e-cigs efficacy. Shouldn’t be too hard to document that. Funny though, can’t find such a study. I’d in fact posit that the flavoring makes it harder to finish the job of then weaning off the e-cigs as well. Which is as valid of a claim to make. A complete view of the evidence is that the efficacy of e-cigs as a class in increasing cigarette quit rates is … not so strong. A [2016 Lancet meta-analysis -](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2213260015005214) > [@](#): > > Odds of quitting cigarettes were 28% lower in those who used e-cigarettes compared with those who did not use e-cigarettes (odds ratio [OR] 0·72, 95% CI 0·57–0·91). Association of e-cigarette use with quitting did not significantly differ among studies of all smokers using e-cigarettes (irrespective of interest in quitting cigarettes) compared with studies of only smokers interested in cigarette cessation (OR 0·63, 95% CI 0·45–0·86 vs 0·86, 0·60–1·23; p=0·94). Other study characteristics (design, population, comparison group, control variables, time of exposure assessment, biochemical verification of abstinence, and definition of e-cigarette use) were also not associated with the overall effect size (p≥0·77 in all cases). > > Interpretation > > As currently being used, e-cigarettes are associated with significantly less quitting among smokers. Yeah, LESS successful quitting using e-cigs than not. Eh. Another medical conspiracy to hide the facts. So let’s ignore this quality meta-analysis and for discussion’s sake assume that the combination of removing the need to smoke to feed the addiction, and the continuation of the perceived social functions of smoking (in-group, having a prop, etc), help facilitate cessation of smoking cigarettes. Seriously no it makes no sense that tutti-fruity flavoring that has not been part of the cigarette smoking experience is required even if it adds pleasure to the addiction behavior. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/101 "2019-08-25T20:39:12Z")
DSeid, where is “quitting” in this discussion. I don’t think nicotine addicts should be forced to quit. The drug itself isn’t the thing that kills people. Your “medical conspiracy” is you have been programmed by your peers to think a certain way that includes"quitting = the goal" and are missing a few key steps. Such as: human beings find it very, very, very difficult to quit any addictive substance. Until the pharm chemists find a way to reverse the brain changes associated with addiction (or do it with an implant), there are other ways to address addiction. Such as by supplying the necessary substance in a safe way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201.md?page=6)