# Vaping saves lives - regulation should keep that in mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2017, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201 "2017-10-18T07:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/102 "2019-08-25T20:56:57Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I’d in fact posit that the flavoring makes it harder to finish the job of then weaning off the e-cigs as well. Which is as valid of a claim to make. Why does weaning off the e-cigs need to be a goal? > [@](#): > > Seriously no it makes no sense that tutti-fruity flavoring that has not been part of the cigarette smoking experience is required even if it adds pleasure to the addiction behavior. “Is required”? Nothing in life is required. Pleasure is not required. You can eat a can of unflavored nutrient paste every day, wear a pair of gray coveralls every day, stare at a blank gray wall in your spare time, whatever man. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/103 "2019-08-25T21:30:51Z")
True that e-cigs can be an addition to smoking cigarettes and not a substitute for. Individual adults should know what their goals are and judge by how well something helps them meet their own desired outcome. If the sole goal for an adult smoker is health harm reduction then substantial harm reduction can be achieved even if all that occurs is a reduction in total number of regular cigarettes smoked per day. Even more if the e-cigs are then weaned down but no quibble that major harms reduced. If the smoker also is frustrated by the expense of cigarettes then continuing e-cigs ad infinitum is not such a great bargain … slightly less costly but still on average over $2K/year up in … vapor. Their goal to set. The article merely documents that the current studies in aggregate do not support that e-cigs help achieve the goal of quitting smoking, and seem to actually decrease that outcome. True, it says nothing about the pleasure of the addiction and increasing or decreasing that pleasure. Again individual adults can make their own decisions. AND policy can be made to discourage having greater numbers of addicts in our population and decrease the fraction of a next generation that becomes addicted, especially by way of being marketed to in childhood with a highly addictive substance administered in a highly addictive form factor. Back to my horse - he wanted another THC vape inhalation but in the process keeled over as I helped him with it (no hands) … probably due to some flavor additive. Was that hitting a dead horse? ---
**Author:** ![TheCuse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thecuse/32/2854_2.png) [@TheCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheCuse)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/104 "2019-08-25T21:37:42Z")
I personally don’t care if people vape or not, though I do think it’s probably safer than regular cigarettes. In fact, my family doctor at one time said he’s rather have me vape then smoke cigarettes. But then I had a stroke in January, and that took care of that. Had to quit smoking (I also give up drinking as I thought it would be a trigger). And all the doctors at the hospital told me, “No vaping.” I could do the gum or patch, they said, but no cigarettes, e-cigs, or vaping. So I quit cold turkey. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/105 "2019-08-25T21:48:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > … > > A complete view of the evidence is that the efficacy of e-cigs as a class in increasing cigarette quit rates is .. not so strong. A [2016 Lancet meta-analysis -](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2213260015005214) > > Yeah, LESS successful quitting using e-cigs than not. > > Eh. Another medical conspiracy to hide the facts. So let’s ignore this quality meta-analysis and for discussion’s sake assume that the combination of removing the need to smoke to feed the addiction, and the continuation of the perceived social functions of smoking (in-group, having a prop, etc), help facilitate cessation of smoking cigarettes. … Sure, no doubt. But medical experts also know that quiting smoking is quite hard and many smokers have to try various methods. I personally know a half dozen smokers who now only vape. [https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/quit-smoking/in-depth/electronic-cigarettes/art-20204330](https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/quit-smoking/in-depth/electronic-cigarettes/art-20204330) \*Will e-cigarettes help me quit smoking? E-cigarettes aren’t an FDA-approved quit aid. Studies to test whether e-cigarettes can help people stop using tobacco have had inconsistent results. Limited research suggests that using only e-cigarettes containing nicotine to quit smoking can be effective short term compared with using medicinal nicotine replacements. But there isn’t enough evidence comparing the safety and effectiveness of using e-cigarettes to quit smoking and established evidence-based treatments. E-cigarettes might be appropriate only in those unwilling to try evidence-based smoking cessation therapies or haven’t had success with such therapies.\* ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/106 "2019-08-25T21:52:04Z")
> **[Can vaping help you quit smoking? - Harvard Health](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/can-vaping-help-you-quit-smoking-2019022716086)** > > While considered less harmful than smoking tobacco, vaping is not risk-free, so the FDA’s recent announcement authorizing sales of new vaping products was surprising. Some research sug... \*What about vaping to help you quit smoking? Advocates of vaping have promoted it as a way to help cigarette smokers to quit. Although giving up nicotine products altogether might be the ultimate goal, there may be health benefits to a smoker who becomes a long-term vaper instead, though this remains unproven. A new study compares vaping with other common nicotine replacement approaches as a way to help smokers quit. The findings support the idea that vaping may help some smokers. Researchers recruited nearly 900 people who wanted to quit smoking, and randomly assigned half to receive e-cigarettes and the other half to receive other nicotine replacement products (such as nicotine patches and gum). All of the study participants received weekly individual counseling for four weeks. After one year, smoking cessation was confirmed by measures of exhaled carbon monoxide (which should be low if you’ve quit but high if you’re still smoking). Here’s what they found: Among those assigned to vaping, 18% had stopped smoking, while about 10% of those using nicotine replacement therapy had quit. Among successful quitters, 80% of those in the e-cigarette group were still vaping; only 9% of those in the nicotine-replacement group were still using those products. Reports of cough and phlegm production dropped more in the e-cigarette group. So, while e-cigarette use was associated with nearly twice the rate of smoking cessation, more than 80% of smokers entering this study continued to smoke a year later. One other caveat to note: the e-cigarettes used in this study contained much lower levels of nicotine than found in some common brands used in the US (such as Juul). The importance of this difference is unclear, but a higher nicotine level could contribute a higher rate of addiction to the e-cigarette.\* Note **“So, while e-cigarette use was associated with nearly twice the rate of smoking cessation,…”** [https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1808779?query=TOC](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1808779?query=TOC) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/107 "2019-08-25T22:09:48Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > True that e-cigs can be an addition to smoking cigarettes and not a substitute for. Individual adults should know what their goals are and judge by how well something helps them meet their own desired outcome. > > If the sole goal for an adult smoker is health harm reduction then substantial harm reduction can be achieved even if all that occurs is a reduction in total number of regular cigarettes smoked per day. Even more if the e-cigs are then weaned down but no quibble that major harms reduced. > > If the smoker also is frustrated by the expense of cigarettes then continuing e-cigs ad infinitum is not such a great bargain … slightly less costly but still on average over $2K/year up in … vapor. Do you have any idea how expensive smoking is? In my neck of the woods, it’s about $13-14 per pack. So a pack a day smoker spends over $4600/yr. I was a pack a day, now I spend about $20/week on vape juice, so a little over a $1000 a year. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/108 "2019-08-25T22:51:10Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Do you have any idea how expensive smoking is? In my neck of the woods, it’s about $13-14 per pack. So a pack a day smoker spends over $4600/yr. I was a pack a day, now I spend about $20/week on vape juice, so a little over a $1000 a year. [Source.](https://www.metro.us/body-and-mind/health/juul-cost-per-month) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/109 "2019-08-25T23:01:06Z")
**DrDeth** individual studies do vary … which is _why_ you go with the large well-designed meta-analysis. You follow politics some … think of it as quoting a single poll vs going with 538’s aggregation. But yes, quitting cigarette smoking (for those who set that as a goal) is hard and the vast majority who try fail, including those who vape as a means of getting off cigarettes. But OTOH more succeed at keeping off cigarettes long term than do at losing major amounts of weight and keeping it off long term and it is of more urgent health impact. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/110 "2019-08-25T23:29:07Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [Source.](https://www.metro.us/body-and-mind/health/juul-cost-per-month) First, you cite points out that using a Juul will save you money over cigarettes And it doesn’t take into account that most of us here are not using Juuls, but rather, vape kits where we refill our own reservoirs at a fraction of the cost of a “Nicotine pod”. I couldn’t tell you how much I spend. Maybe 30-40 a month, maybe. I probably spend as much on replacing batteries that get broken by keeping them in my pocket as I do on juice. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/111 "2019-08-25T23:33:38Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **DrDeth** individual studies do vary … which is _why_ you go with the large well-designed meta-analysis. You follow politics some … think of it as quoting a single poll vs going with 538’s aggregation. > > But yes, quitting cigarette smoking (for those who set that as a goal) is hard and the vast majority who try fail, including those who vape as a means of getting off cigarettes. But OTOH more succeed at keeping off cigarettes long term than do at losing major amounts of weight and keeping it off long term and it is of more urgent health impact. I can go up a flight of stairs without getting winded. That’s a pretty big quality of life change that vaping has given me. It has also made me more active. I can take my dogs out for a walk without being beat when I get home. Every time I’ve tried to quit smoking in the past, I’ve gained a considerable amount of weight. Since I switched to vapes, I’ve lost weight and am overall far healthier, even though I am a bit older. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/112 "2019-08-25T23:44:26Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [Source.](https://www.metro.us/body-and-mind/health/juul-cost-per-month) Juul is a specific product that trades ease of use for higher price. I personally use one $3 replacement coil per week and about $15 for 30ml of vape liquid. I’m sure some use more or less than that but that’s what I’m at as a former pack a day smoker. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/113 "2019-08-26T00:07:44Z")
Corrections to the amount of money potentially saved over smoking for those who don’t go for the ease of use name brand that enjoys a 76% market share noted and accepted. And if you are indeed someone who is in a group that succeeded to quit smoking with vaping while failing with other nicotine replacement products more power to you. If you have no desire to wean off of nicotine completely and are content in having had your harms reduced and the costs are, after having budgeted in for cigarettes in the past, no big deal to you, then I have no quibbles with your decision. Your life your goals. **k9bfriender** those are indeed big deal things. I do remain with issues regarding practices that result in more becoming addicts, some of whom will suffer harms from that addiction, especially regarding practices that are getting many addicted in childhood. Sorry you not having as easy of access to the added pleasure of strawberry milk or mango or watermelon vape flavorings is in comparison a cry me a river item. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/114 "2019-08-26T00:23:50Z")
Nm ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/115 "2019-08-26T00:36:29Z")
I’d like a cite for a 76% market share. I’m rather certain that’s close to their share of the easy-to-use market but not the whole vape market. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/116 "2019-08-26T00:39:21Z")
[Source.](https://www.journalnow.com/business/juul-ends-with-percent-market-share/article_6f50f427-19ec-50be-8b0c-d3df18d08759.html) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/117 "2019-08-26T00:43:03Z")
Can’t wait for you to stamp out sweet alcohol drinks. I’m sure the campaign to stop childhood obesity by making all soda drinks Basil flavor will also come out soon. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/118 "2019-08-26T00:46:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > [Source.](https://www.journalnow.com/business/juul-ends-with-percent-market-share/article_6f50f427-19ec-50be-8b0c-d3df18d08759.html) Source: > [@](#): > > The market share is based primarily on Nielsen convenience store data for the four-week period that ended Dec. 29. Juul’s market share dipped from 76.1 percent in the previous report. You notice that the article doesn’t even mention the traditional market? It only talks about easy-to-use products. All these busy vape stores tell me that convenience stores don’t have a hundred percent of the market ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/119 "2019-08-26T01:43:57Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Can’t wait for you to stamp out sweet alcohol drinks. I’m sure the campaign to stop childhood obesity by making all soda drinks Basil flavor will also come out soon. I’ve been pretty clear in many past threads in my position that the marketing of high added sugar beverages in particular and foods too is an issue and that better regulation of such is a part of the needed approach to impact childhood obesity rates. [Some](https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2017/06/30/Tougher-advertising-rules-for-marketing-unhealthy-foods-at-children-come-in-to-effect-tomorrow) steps have been taken. Your hyperbole is cute but the basic idea that controlling the access and exposure of children to things that will have significant long term adverse health impacts, in reasonable ways, is the rational position. That said highly sweetened beverages are not as addictive as nicotine. ---
**Author:** ![dougrb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/76d3ee/32.png) [@dougrb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougrb)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/120 "2019-08-26T01:45:38Z")
I spent $2200 from 2010 to 2019 on ecigs. When I quit smoking I smoked a pack a week of $7.00 cigarettes. That’s $3276. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2019, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/121 "2019-08-26T02:44:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I do remain with issues regarding practices that result in more becoming addicts, some of whom will suffer harms from that addiction, especially regarding practices that are getting many addicted in childhood. > > Sorry you not having as easy of access to the added pleasure of strawberry milk or mango or watermelon vape flavorings is in comparison a cry me a river item. Let me get this straight. You need to be 18-21 to smoke, and 18-21 to vape. Those children are getting their fruit flavors **illegally**. So now you are saying that a product intended for adults, that you admit probably makes adults healthier than the alternative, that is illegal for children to buy…cannot be made a certain way because kids might get their hands on it. Cool. So we’re banning all the candy in the world as well, right? And guns, oh boy. You realize that nearly every firearm ever sold has **no** smart mechanism to ensure a licensed adult is holding the weapon, and **also** no difficult to actuate for a kid’s hands lock to remove the safety or open the jar of ammunition. Making a kid-safe world is possible, but the way to do it isn’t to restrict commercially available products on the market that have accepted levels of risk when used as intended. (aka, guns and vapes. Vapes have an acceptable level of risk as they are much safer than cigarettes) A more practical method would be better monitoring, so that when Timmy gets an adult to buy him a vape, someone gets informed and actions can be taken. This would make _all_ of the dangerous products that can possibly harm children get reduced instead of just some. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201.md?page=7)