# Vaping saves lives - regulation should keep that in mind **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2017, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201 "2017-10-18T07:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/162 "2019-09-07T10:03:10Z")
Vaping has been around for awhile now, which leads to the question why the sudden appearance of lung disease now? Of course, it may only _appear_ sudden, there could have been diagnosed cases for some time now. It could be that the damage builds over time and there is only now a pool of people who have been vaping long enough to show damage. It _might_ be that even though vaping is statistically less dangerous/damaging the damage occurs over a much shorter time period (months or a few years) than with tobacco (decades) so the link is more apparent. Or maybe other things, which is why it is still being researched. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2019, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/163 "2019-09-07T13:55:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > So a bunch of people got sick vaping contraband THC vape cartridges. Sounds like a perfect reason to ban Tooty Fruity nicotine vape juice. _“Many, though not all, of the patients who have fallen ill had used cannabis-derived vaping products, and some had also used nicotine-containing products. A smaller group reported using nicotine only.”_ > **[CDC Says Number Of Possible Cases Of Vaping-Related Lung Illness Has Doubled](https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/06/758337583/cdc-says-number-of-possible-cases-of-vaping-related-lung-illness-has-doubled)** > > The CDC says it is probing 450 reported cases of illness in people who vaped nicotine or cannabis products. Health officials say it's too soon to pinpoint a single product or substance as the cause. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Vaping has been around for awhile now, which leads to the question why the sudden appearance of lung disease now? > > Of course, it may only appear sudden, there could have been diagnosed cases for some time now. Another concern: while acute or subacute lung injury from vaping constituents has been found, there’s also a serious concern about slowly developing long-term effects that might manifest many years down the line. My advice to aspiring pathologists: do a fellowship in pulmonary pathology. Your expertise will come in handy later on (those considering a career as pulmonologists should also take heart - while your business model will take a hit as smoking continues to decline, you’ll probably be able to make up some of the difference on vaping-related chronic lung disease. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/164 "2019-09-08T15:15:58Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > , you’ll probably be able to make up some of the difference on vaping-related chronic lung disease. What a bold prediction. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/165 "2019-09-08T18:33:03Z")
It’s not just a river in Egypt. Oh, and not that they need another source of income, but personal injury lawyers could have a bonanza in coming years from class action suits and other actions. I’m surprised I haven’t yet seen TV ads from law firms soliciting vape clients over lung injuries. So far they’ve concentrated on [suing over addiction](https://www.levinlaw.com/juul-lawsuit-addiction) and vaping device explosions/burn injuries. Regardless, the price of vaping supplies will reflect the cost of paying settlements. And nicotine addicts will be in no position to complain. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/166 "2019-09-08T19:41:54Z")
The notion, that some seem to have, that inhaling anything but air\* isn’t almost certainly gonna have long term deleterious boggles my mind. (\*With the exception, maybe, of therapeutic drugs.) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/167 "2019-09-10T00:36:11Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > The notion, that some seem to have, that inhaling anything but air\* isn’t almost certainly gonna have long term deleterious boggles my mind. > (\*With the exception, maybe, of therapeutic drugs.) > > CMC fnord! When was the last day you breathed nothing but air, do you think? I have no doubt that there is some health effects from vaping and I really don’t understand why anyone would think otherwise. What I don’t see is that it’s worse than smoking, alcohol or a liter of Pepsi a day. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/168 "2019-09-10T00:43:26Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m surprised I haven’t yet seen TV ads from law firms soliciting vape clients over lung injuries. So far they’ve concentrated on [suing over addiction](https://www.levinlaw.com/juul-lawsuit-addiction) and vaping device explosions/burn injuries. > . I’m not surprised you’re surprised but lawyers like a little more than chicken little hypothetical predictions before launching class action suits. ---
**Author:** ![Turki-lurki](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turki-lurki/32/7168_2.png) [@Turki-lurki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turki-lurki)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/169 "2019-09-10T03:51:59Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > We could also decide that other activities far less harmful than smoking should be minimally or not at all regulated. > > Why inflict workplace safety regulations on private industry, when the number of workers killed each year in the U.S. is less than one-hundredth the death toll from smoking? Those regulations are job killers! > Only a tiny number of people are harmed every year by accidents on amusement park rides. Stop regulating them too. Contaminated foods, adulterated supplement pills, Ikea dressers - we could go on and on. They’re all way less harmful than smoking, and regulating them results in increased costs and inconvenience for consumers. > > Or maybe we can craft reasonable rules in each instance to protect the public without giving in to special pleading. Well said! Also worth noting: while current commercialized vape systems appear safer than cigarettes, the industry is unregulated and will undoubtedly make ‘innovations’ to make vaping more appealing/ addictive/ lucrative. Those ‘improvrments’ will only be tested in the real world. You are the assay animal in the toxicity test. Sound like a good thing? Maybe not… ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/170 "2019-09-10T04:16:33Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I’m not surprised you’re surprised but lawyers like a little more than chicken little hypothetical predictions before launching class action suits. Beyond the fact that vaping-associated lung injuries are not “hypothetical” any longer, it turns out that law firms are [already](https://www.youhavealawyer.com/vape/) [soliciting clients](http://levylaw.com/juul-and-vaping-lawsuits/) who say they’ve been harmed in this manner. Looks like the “Happy Time”\* might be coming to an end for the vaping industry. Regulatory and legal costs will be going up and undoubtedly be passed on to consumers. \*a term used by German U-boat crews to describe their early successes in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/171 "2019-09-10T05:51:01Z")
Well, I don’t use juul, so we’ll see how big an impact those lawsuits have on the wider industry. ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/172 "2019-09-11T04:19:48Z")
posted this in the [MPSIMS thread.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=21853107&posted=1#post21853107) . . There has just been another vape related death reported, bringing the current total to 6, and there are 450 cases in 33 different states that are being investigated. So far there is no one thing linking all the cases together. The NY State Health Dept has listed Vitamin E acetate as a likely culprit in most of the cases but cannot confirm a link to all the cases they are studying. The CDC has not said anything yet about a possible cause. [Their latest post](https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/basic_information/e-cigarettes/severe-lung-disease.html) is from 3 days ago > [@](#): > > CDC, FDA, state and local health departments, and other clinical and public health partners are investigating a multistate outbreak of pulmonary disease associated with e-cigarette product (devices, liquids, refill pods, and/or cartridges) use. This ongoing investigation seeks to identify the exposures, demographic, clinical, and laboratory features and behaviors of patients. All patients have reported e-cigarette product use. Some patients have reported using e-cigarettes containing cannabinoid products, such as THC. To date, the investigation has not identified any single substance or e-cigarette product that has been consistently associated with illness. > > State health departments are working with FDA to enable collection of e-cigarette product specimens for testing at the U.S. FDA Forensic Chemistry Center. Even tho this is getting alot of media attention right now, it could very well be that these illnesses have been happening all along and it is just now that TPTB are making the connection. The American Lung Association has been sounding the alarm for about 10 yrs now and in Jan 2018 the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine [released a consensus study report](https://www.nap.edu/resource/24952/012318ecigaretteConclusionsbyEvidence.pdf) that reviewed over 800 different studies that includes these findings [ul] [li]A study from the University of North Carolina found that the two primary ingredients found in e-cigarettes—propylene glycol and vegetable glycerin—are toxic to cells and that the more ingredients in an e-liquid, the greater the toxicity.[/li][li] E-cigarettes produce a number of dangerous chemicals including acetaldehyde, acrolein, and formaldehyde. These aldehydes can cause lung disease, as well as cardiovascular (heart) disease.[/li][li] E-cigarettes also contain acrolein, a herbicide primarily used to kill weeds. It can cause acute lung injury and COPD and may cause asthma and lung cancer.[/li][li] Both the U.S. Surgeon General and the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine have warned about the risks of inhaling secondhand e-cigarette emissions, which are created when an e-cigarette user exhales the chemical cocktail created by e-cigarettes.[/li][li] In 2016, the Surgeon General concluded that secondhand emissions contain, “nicotine; ultrafine particles; flavorings such as diacetyl, a chemical linked to serious lung disease; volatile organic compounds such as benzene, which is found in car exhaust; and heavy metals, such as nickel, tin, and lead.”[/li][li] The Food and Drug Administration has not found any e-cigarette to be safe and effective in helping smokers quit. If smokers are ready to quit smoking for good, they should call 1-800-QUIT NOW or talk with their doctor about finding the best way to quit using proven methods and FDA-approved treatments and counseling.[/li][/ul] ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/173 "2019-09-11T18:29:02Z")
Zoinks this thread did not age well. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/174 "2019-09-11T19:26:33Z")
And now [Trump wants to ban flavored vapes](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-administration-meeting-address-vaping-crisis-n1052396). Didn’t Republicans once decry “nanny state” regulation? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/175 "2019-09-11T21:48:47Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Didn’t Republicans once decry “nanny state” regulation? Republicans have all been run thru the Trumpmogrifier, so they bear little resemblance to the actual Republicans of any previous era. The story so far: a) It’s not clear that vaping is an effective way to wean off nicotine, or even tobacco. b) Unexplained acute respiratory debility and deaths are occurring, credibly attributed to vaping, in fairly significant numbers. So the core assertion of this thread, that **Vaping Saves Lives** has not been reasonably established. I await further data. But would in the meantime counsel people desiring to get off tobacco to stick with traditional nicotine gum or patches along with peer support. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/176 "2019-09-11T21:50:58Z")
Shit, if three deaths is all it took, wait until I tell these guys about guns. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/177 "2019-09-11T22:13:28Z")
> [@Pufnstuf a dragon?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pufnstuf-a-dragon/225/7): > > I await further data. But would in the meantime counsel people desiring to get off tobacco to stick with traditional nicotine gum or patches along with peer support. Those aren’t particularly useful either though, are they? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/178 "2019-09-11T22:23:43Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Shit, if three deaths is all it took, wait until I tell these guys about guns. Tobacco kills 500000 americans a year, 50000 by second hand smoke. They know. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/179 "2019-09-11T23:44:23Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > > [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > > > I await further data. But would in the meantime counsel people desiring to get off tobacco to stick with traditional nicotine gum or patches along with peer support. > > Those aren’t particularly useful either though, are they? Yes and no. Truth is, there are NO highly effective methods for getting off any form of addiction. The success rate, even for the most effective methods, is under 20% per attempt. Which is why addicts typically need multiple attempts to quit before they finally do so for good, and why relapses are so common. Nictoine gum and patches are, at present, two of the more effective means to end a tobacco addiction. Their success rate, per attempt, is still under 20%. There are other methods that are _even worse_ than that. Treating addiction is _hard_. There are no quick and easy fixes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/180 "2019-09-11T23:57:42Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes and no. > > Truth is, there are NO highly effective methods for getting off any form of addiction. The success rate, even for the most effective methods, is under 20% per attempt. Which is why addicts typically need multiple attempts to quit before they finally do so for good, and why relapses are so common. > > Nictoine gum and patches are, at present, two of the more effective means to end a tobacco addiction. Their success rate, per attempt, is still under 20%. There are other methods that are _even worse_ than that. > > Treating addiction is _hard_. There are no quick and easy fixes. This is true, which is why if vaping does work for a particular smoker, then I support it. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2019, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201/181 "2019-09-12T00:04:55Z")
I will say that getting a new generation hooked on nicotine, then banning the most preferred delivery systems (flavored vapes), was a master stroke by the cigarette and blunt industries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vaping-saves-lives-regulation-should-keep-that-in-mind/799201.md?page=10)