# Various states, including Colorado, determine Trump is disqualified from holding office **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [August 11, 2023, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412 "2023-08-11T16:27:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 33
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/642 "2023-12-22T04:41:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Does that then effectively give the green light to Biden to commit insurrection in order to remain in office? Logically, it would mean only that if Biden committed insurrection he would not be disqualified from seeking a second term. It says nothing about the criminality of anyone (including Biden) committing insurrection. The other appeal that they are soon hearing in the DC case about presidential immunity is the one that could, if they side with Trump, imply that Biden then has _carte blanche_ to poison Trump’s hamburger or defenestrate a few inconvenient judges. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/643 "2023-12-22T07:02:41Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The state legislatures decided who they wanted to appoint as their two US senators. The state legislatures decided who they wanted their allotment of presidential electors to vote for President. The citizens’ input into both those decisions was limited to electing state legislators that they hoped would do as the citizens wanted. > > And how did those legislatures make these decisions? Sometimes via public recorded vote, and sometimes by backroom deal-making. It was not (and is not today) the business of the Federal government _how_ those decisions were made. Only that they got done timely to seat a senate and a president on schedule. > > There is nothing in Federal law that precludes any or all states from returning to that old way of doing things. For clarification, that last paragraph is true for presidential elections. Senators and have been elected by citizens since the ratification of the 17th amendment in 1913. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/644 "2023-12-22T07:10:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, the best outcome is the chaos one, because all of the chaos will fall on the Republican Party. Actually, ISTM that chaos is kinda like rain, and falls on the just and unjust alike. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/645 "2023-12-22T10:56:02Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > The “enemies” listed are those who “shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same” Enemies thereof refers to enemies of the United States, not necessarily domestic enemies. Compare identical language from art III, treason clause. There is overlap with insurrection but it also covers foreign enemies. Maybe you can see it better if I shorten the quote like this, > No person shall […] hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, […] who, having previously taken an oath, […] as an officer of the United States, […] to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have […] given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. Similarity the treason clause does not refer exclusively to foreign enemies, if I remember correctly the Confederacy was held to be an enemy of the United States in the Prize Cases (concerning Lincoln’s impoundment of blockade runners), contrary to common law authorities like Coke where all enemies are foreign. What sets apart the Confederate States and the Third Reich from the likes of China and Russia is that the former were belligerents in a war against the United States, but the latter are not. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > There is nothing in Federal law that precludes any or all states from returning to that old way of doing things. I think there is a federal law requiring states to certify the popular vote to the national archivist. It was passed to avoid another 1876 election where three states had sent multiple competing slates of electoral votes. (Democrats got Reconstruction killed, Republicans got President Hayes.) Not sure how that is written to work if a state doesn’t hold a popular vote, it wouldn’t surprise me if it doesn’t contemplate that possibility. I can’t think of a right considered more fundamental than voting. The Fourteenth Amendment, section 1, has been interpreted as requiring states to demonstrate a compelling interest before abrogating a fundamental right. So that’s a roadblock. If states just decide to remove Biden (or Trump) by legislative decree, that also runs into problems with art I section 10, prohibiting bills of attainder. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/646 "2023-12-22T13:40:23Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > It’s very unlikely, if not impossible, for the Supreme Court to overrule a finding of fact. More likely, they’ll say the finder of fact needs to reconsider, taking into account something else. And that’s if they address the facts, instead of only the law. Gorsuch and friends had absolutely no problem lying about the findings of facts in Bremerton v. Kennedy. I cant imagine that would be a problem for them here. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/647 "2023-12-22T14:40:10Z")
If Trump had succeeded in J6, do we think he would’ve waited until a conviction occurred prior to his imprisoning Pelosi, Biden, Schumer, etc? This question was asked on Keith Olbermann’s podcast this morning, and he brings up a good point: Trump and his team obviously had a plan for what would happen if their coup succeeded. What was it? And do you think they would’ve hand-wrung about whether their pretexts had any basis in law or the Constitution? So why are we treating this insurrectionist, a man who obviously acted in opposition to the Constitution, by giving him the constant, continual, benefit of a doubt? Why make sure all the i’s are crossed, the t’s are dotted, and why should we be bothered to give him the benefit of a USSC judgment, one NOT REQUIRED BY THE 14TH AMENDMENT, so he can do this again? Fuck this guy. Lock him up and throw away the key. Because, as sure as shit as I’m typing this, he will be glad to do the same to us. And given the chance, _ **he will** _. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/648 "2023-12-22T14:57:39Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Enemies thereof refers to enemies of the United States, not necessarily domestic enemies. That’s nonsense. You don’t understand what “thereof” means. That word means “as just described”. Thats why that word was included, it was to make it clear which enemies were meant. I know the word is a bit archaic but it’s not _that_ obscure. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/649 "2023-12-22T14:58:10Z")
Unless I see the plan I’m not so sure Trump had a plan for after. He’s more of a go with your gut and figure it out as you go dude when it comes to politics. ETA: If Trump wrote the plan himself it probably said something like “stay don’t leave still PRESIDENT!” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/650 "2023-12-22T15:13:21Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Unless I see the plan I’m not so sure Trump had a plan for after. He’s more of a go with your gut and figure it out as you go dude when it comes to politics. I mean, we say this, and then there’s this convoluted, multi-pronged approach to overturning the election, one including: 1. J6 2. Pressuring governors 3. Pressuring county election officials 4. Message discipline 5. 60+ legal cases 6. The Dominion/Smartmatic lies 7. Fake electors scheme 8. (More, but I’m typing this off the top of my head) … and all of them, with the _possible_ exception of #6, have Trump’s direct involvement. So I think the argument that “Trump is a moron who doesn’t know what he is doing other than wanting something…” is not supported by the evidence. 1. Stealing National Security documents 2. Stealing that binder about Russian influence in 2016 … the list of things _just from November 2020 to January 2021_ belies the notion that Trump is an unthinking moron… ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/651 "2023-12-22T15:13:33Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > If the Supreme Court does not take issue with the fact that Trump committed insurrection, and merely agrees with the lower court that this does not apply to the president (not an office). > > Does that then effectively give the green light to Biden to commit insurrection in order to remain in office? They could put in a statement that the ruling in favor of Trump should not be treated as a precedent. This is widely claimed to have occurred in [Bush v. Gore](https://www.yalelawjournal.org/forum/please-dona8217t-cite-this-case-the-precedential-value-of-bush-v-gore). They also could just reverse themselves if and when Biden does the same. Biden would know they are capable of that, so he wouldn’t really have a green light. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/652 "2023-12-22T15:33:14Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > What sets apart the Confederate States and the Third Reich from the likes of China and Russia is that the former were belligerents in a war against the United States, but the latter are not. Russia declared back in 2016 that they had committed acts of war against the US. I don’t know why everyone ignores that. > [@Atamasama](#): > > That’s nonsense. You don’t understand what “thereof” means. That word means “as just described”. Thats why that word was included, it was to make it clear which enemies were meant. I know the word is a bit archaic but it’s not _that_ obscure. “Thereof” means “of the thing just mentioned”. “Enemies thereof” is "enemies of the United States. It doesn’t specify foreign or domestic. Do you really think that the drafters considered it OK for an officer of the US to betray America to foreign countries? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/653 "2023-12-22T15:46:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Do you really think that the drafters considered it OK for an officer of the US to betray America to foreign countries? No but that’s covered by treason laws. That interpretation would say everyone guilty of treason is an insurrectionist. It wouldn’t be an overlap like Max says, it would be a redundancy, because people guilty of treason were executed. My interpretation is that it means that giving aid and comfort to those engaged in insurrection is itself insurrection. Do you really think the drafters considered it okay for an officer of the US to aid insurrectionists? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/654 "2023-12-22T15:47:30Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Do you really think the drafters considered it okay for an officer of the US to aid insurrectionists? No, because it doesn’t specify whether the enemies are foreign or domestic. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/655 "2023-12-22T15:50:09Z")
I don’t see how that’s relevant. It doesn’t matter if someone is foreign or domestic. If you conspired with Russia to help you illegally take over the US then that’s no different than conspiring with a white supremacist group out of Idaho. I’m not sure how “foreign or domestic” even became a question in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/656 "2023-12-22T16:26:31Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > They also could just reverse themselves if and when Biden does the same. Biden would know they are capable of that, so he wouldn’t really have a green light. I guess they could stick a footnote on the decision: IOKIARCI It’s OK If A Republican Commits Insurrection ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2023, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/657 "2023-12-22T16:36:52Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > That’s nonsense. You don’t understand what “thereof” means. That word means “as just described”. No, @Max_S and @Chronos are correct, it means “of the thing just mentioned” - so the phrase in question clearly means enemies of the United States. > …to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. Grammatically, perhaps it’s technically slightly flawed because the thing just mentioned is the _Constitution_ of the United States, but I think we can forgive them that. > [@Atamasama](#): > > I don’t see how that’s relevant. It doesn’t matter if someone is foreign or domestic. I’m confused, you seem to be arguing against yourself here. The text doesn’t specify foreign or domestic enemies, so it includes both. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/658 "2023-12-23T18:02:41Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > hamburger Ham_burder_ ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/659 "2023-12-23T18:10:12Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Ham_burder_ Ham_berder_ ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2023, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/660 "2023-12-23T18:13:31Z")
Thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2023, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412/661 "2023-12-26T15:38:44Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > But you also wish this didn’t happen because you feel it will strengthen Trump’s reelection efforts. > > So I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that you don’t think Trump is above the law, but for political reasons you wish he kind of was a little in just this one situation. And some folks aren’t very receptive to that idea. I missed that someone had responded to me. No-one needs to read between the lines because I have been explicit from my very first post. If the interpretation of the law is correct (which I am no expert on, and I know lawyers have had different opinions on this, that’s why I leave that part open), then by definition the judges have done the right thing, and I do not wish for anything more or less. Judges should uphold the law, and nobody is above the law. _And_ I am worried that the consequences of this will be bad. It’s like when I told my insurance company that I scraped a parked car. It was the right thing to do…send me back in time and I would tell them again, _and_ the consequences were massively increased premiums for years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412.md?page=32) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/various-states-including-colorado-determine-trump-is-disqualified-from-holding-office/988412.md?page=34)