tom:
One wonders if the Jesus magazine is comparable to my favorite Catholic rag http://www.thewandererpress.com/ ;
)
You can not have rules that change through time…it is not consistent with A God that does not change…
Huh?
I’m not sure what you mean by “rules”. But certainly practices and understandings do change/evolve in the RCC. Hello Latin Mass?
I think that’s the distinction Isabelle is trying to make. The music at Mass might change throughout time, but the idea of reverence (i.e., no clapping) does not. Priests being allowed to marry might change, the all-male priesthood would not. (Long story, ask again later.)
Thank you ResIpsaLoquitor
Well even THAT is mixing up several levels of Church teaching. None of the things in your list would qualify as dogma…hell the clapping business would not even by doctrinal in nature. (I assume we’re only speaking about the RCC in this thread).
The notion that “reverence” means “no clapping” would mean that millions of the the faithful have been guilty of irreverence toward the pontiff, by clapping at the end of Masses celebrated by him. And it would appear that he is therefore an accomplice to this “irreverance” (by not discouraging same during all those masses).
Since J2P2 (according to this article) is now suggesting that clapping stop…how else do you describe that action …but “Changing his mind”?
OK, lemme clarify…
“Clapping” is symptomatic of an abuse, not an abuse in and of itself. It may be that JPII and the higher-ups have noticed a trend that people are going to church JUST for the music, or are focusing SOLELY on the music, rather than the sacrifice on the altar which is intended to be the centerpiece of the Mass.
I suppose clapping could be considered “reverent” if it were a church convention to do so, the way kneeling at the consecration is. The point is that, as the church sees it, applauding the music for its own sake is detracting from the service.
As for people applauding the Pope himself–well, I suppose that’s problematic as well. I don’t know that he’s said anything about that–and I don’t know that he hasn’t. I was at a Papal Mass once myself, and I admit it got a little wild–but you try doing crowd control on 2 million people, half of whom are practically in love with the guy.
And I forgot to add: the all-male priesthood IS dogma.
Cite?
Whoops. I read your reply too fast…and was thinking about the “celibacy” tradition rather than the “male” tradition.
There is a clear distinction between the two teachings of course. I would not close the door forever to the possibility of female ordination, but a married priesthood is a much more likely scenario in the forseeable future. (By married, I’m of course referring not just to married Episcopal priests converting to RC).
At most Masses I’ve been to, applause was only for things like special events-for example, you had a couple celebrating their fiftieth wedding anniversary, or a new baby being baptized. Then the priests would invite the congregation to applaud.
But that was it.
If anyone’s interested in HOW the RCC has changed their stance on several issues over the millennia, you have only to read “Eunuch’s For the Kingdom of Heaven”, by Uta Ranke-Heinemann(A German female theologian who lost her teaching post due to Church pressure) Her books are well-researched, eminently readable and gives one pause about how the Church has evolved.
If I was a betting man, I’d say you’ll see female priests before the Church would ever allow priests to marry. The handful of convert ordained priests is negligible. When it does happen, and it will IMHO, it’ll be promulgated on the point that God loves us ALL, and therefore, HIS ministers should reflect that point. The transition will be difficult for many. Even now I know several people that refuse to take communion from female eucharistic ministers. Time to adopt Jesus’ attitude, and love your fellow man and woman, who are equal in God’s eyes, but unfortunately not the Church’s. We shall overcome…
I’d take that bet, and give you any odds you wanted. There is ample precedent for a married priesthood. I don’t believe the practice of a celibate priesthood was firmly established for close to 1,000 years. Also, in addition to convert ordained priests (i.e., converts from the Episcopalian Church or the various Orthodox Churches), Eastern Rite priests are permitted to marry.
You should check out Peter Steinfels’ new book, The Crisis of the Roman Catholic Church in America. He’s got a fascinating take on what would be the necessary groundwork for the ordination of women.