# Vatican Excommunicates Abortion Providers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217 "2006-09-02T17:23:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/21 "2006-09-02T23:16:04Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] Will a seven month terminated fetus have an afterlife, or must that fetus be expelled alive first. [/QUOTE] Why would it matter ? It wouldn’t notice if it _did_ have an afterlife; there’s nobody there _to_ notice. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2006, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/22 "2006-09-02T23:16:11Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] But we are talking about following the Man who defined “love thy neighbor as thyself,” the Golden Rule, “inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these, you have done it unto Me,” and other such humanistic moral pronouncements. [/QUOTE] How’d I miss this? If secular humanism finds no conflict (or few) in Christ’s words & lessons, it doesn’t make Christ retroactively a humanist, nor his words humanistic. _This is backwards._ Christ didn’t co-opt humanism. The humanist has co-opted Christ in limited ways, finding his message to be consistent with a humanistic worldview. But the fact that there is some agreement between Christian ethics (and the bible) and secular humanist ethics doesn’t confer legitimacy to secular humanism within the Christian framework. _Christ was no secular humanist._ ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/23 "2006-09-03T00:11:05Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] That position considers the unborn child to be a _human life_, and worthy of all the protections available to all other humans. While the RCC would certainly agree that the rape of this girl was a tragedy, and very traumatic for everyone involved, it is not a justification for killing the unborn child. You simply don’t fix one tragedy be creating _a bigger tragedy._ (which is exactly what the RCC would consider the abortion of that child) Whether you and I agree with that or not, it is a defensible position and apparently they are _consistent_ in their value of life. (unlike many who try to split the baby in matters of rape/incest (pun intended). [/QUOTE] If that is their position, why do they ignore the 20% of pregnancies that end in spontaneous abvortion? Should these children not be granted all the rights and privileges of any other human who has died? > [@](#): > > Of course, this little girl is not alone. There are many girls/women who are victimized like that. And I believe the church has historically reached out to the parts of society that were downtrodden, or victimized. Oh, absolutely. [The Magdalene Laundry](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/08/sunday/main567365.shtml) comes to mind. That’s some reaching out right there. Until it is a tenet of the Catholic church to adopt every child who needs a family, their admonition against abortion rings hollow. Kindred to the sound of tinkling brass. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/24 "2006-09-03T00:14:29Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] If that is their position, why do they ignore the 20% of pregnancies that end in spontaneous abvortion? Should these children not be granted all the rights and privileges of any other human who has died? [/QUOTE] Twenty percent of all pregnancies end in “spontaneous abortion?” What is that? (I don’t disbelieve you, but I’d like a credible site.) ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/25 "2006-09-03T00:35:57Z")
According to the [Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/miscarriage/PR00097): > [@Mayo Clinic Article](#): > > Approximately 10 percent to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. But the actual number is probably much higher. That’s because many miscarriages occur very early in pregnancy, before a woman even knows she’s pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/26 "2006-09-03T01:05:07Z")
[QUOTE=DianaG] According to the [Mayo Clinic](http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/miscarriage/PR00097): [/QUOTE] Thanks for the credible site. I don’t want to find myself speaking for the RCC as I’m not a Catholic. (or defending them) As to **Contrapuntal** ’s post, it seems to me that the RCC would consider that fetus to be [essentially] a dead baby, right? As such, wouldn’t it be accorded a funeral and burial like any other baby? It seems so, but I don’t know. What any given Catholic does in this circunstance is an individual decision. I’d like a RCC cite that indicates some RCC policy that “ignores” this population. Ignores them in what fashion? Ignores them how? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/27 "2006-09-03T01:18:42Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] Thanks for the credible site. I don’t want to find myself speaking for the RCC as I’m not a Catholic. (or defending them) As to **Contrapuntal** ’s post, it seems to me that the RCC would consider that fetus to be [essentially] a dead baby, right? As such, wouldn’t it be accorded a funeral and burial like any other baby? It seems so, but I don’t know. What any given Catholic does in this circunstance is an individual decision. I’d like a RCC cite that indicates some RCC policy that “ignores” this population. Ignores them in what fashion? Ignores them how? [/QUOTE] According to [Catholics United for the Faith](http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=264) and [americancatholic.org](http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=264) miscarried babies are entitled to a Catholic funeral. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/28 "2006-09-03T01:28:32Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] According to [Catholics United for the Faith](http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=264) and [americancatholic.org](http://www.cuf.org/Faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=264) miscarried babies are entitled to a Catholic funeral. [/QUOTE] Thanks for that. It seems to me that the RCC is consistent, if nothing else. On the front end they require celibacy before marriage (IIRC), monogamy after marriage, and burials for aborted babies. Hardly seems that they’re ignoring them. I also seem to remember (IIRC) that both Catholic Social Services and Lutheran Social Services are active in helping to place babies for adoption. ---
**Author:** ![Nic2004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4491bb/32.png) [@Nic2004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nic2004)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/29 "2006-09-03T01:32:11Z")
I kind of like the response from one of their Senators > [@](#): > > A senator, Gina Parody, said: "The Vatican has the right to excommunicate whomever they choose. But I would hope that they also excommunicate priests when they rape boys or girls. Man, what a _burn_. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/30 "2006-09-03T01:38:53Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] Thanks for that. It seems to me that the RCC is consistent, if nothing else. On the front end they require celibacy before marriage (IIRC), monogamy after marriage, and burials for aborted babies. Hardly seems that they’re ignoring them. I also seem to remember (IIRC) that both Catholic Social Services and Lutheran Social Services are active in helping to place babies for adoption. [/QUOTE] You are welcome. I would agree with you on your last point…Catholic Charities placed ME for adoption. I lived in a Catholic orphanage, cared for by Sisters, until I was 6 weeks old when my parents adopted me. IMO, this is one of the Church’s greatest missions. I also have to agree that the RCC is at least consistent. The idea that the church will become “irrelevant” is, well, irrelevant. The Church doesn’t subscribe to the idea that times change/morality changes, and they don’t tend to compromise too much on the respect that they have for life, especially innocent life. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/31 "2006-09-03T02:22:24Z")
I’m still not understanding the church’s position that clearly. If a Catholic murdered an adult, they would not be excommunicated. Why is the supposed murder of a fetus that much worse? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/32 "2006-09-03T02:37:35Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] I’m still not understanding the church’s position that clearly. If a Catholic murdered an adult, they would not be excommunicated. Why is the supposed murder of a fetus that much worse? [/QUOTE] Because it gives them an opportunity to hurt women. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/33 "2006-09-03T04:34:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] You are welcome. I would agree with you on your last point…Catholic Charities placed ME for adoption. I lived in a Catholic orphanage, cared for by Sisters, until I was 6 weeks old when my parents adopted me. IMO, this is one of the Church’s greatest missions. I also have to agree that the RCC is at least consistent. The idea that the church will become “irrelevant” is, well, irrelevant. The Church doesn’t subscribe to the idea that times change/morality changes, and they don’t tend to compromise too much on the respect that they have for life, especially innocent life. [/QUOTE] And the 11-year-old girl isn’t innocent? I’m not seeing much respect for _her_ life. The church has a ridiculously simplistic definition of what “life” is. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/34 "2006-09-03T04:39:06Z")
Strictly from a PR perspective, bad move Catholic Church. I can respect standing up for your principles even when it isn’t popular, but they can’t honestly think this is going to get them new converts. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/35 "2006-09-03T04:39:19Z")
[QUOTE=Lissa] Why is the supposed murder of a fetus that much worse? [/QUOTE] I’m guessing it has something to do with the dogma that infants who die before they can be baptized go straight to Hell. > **[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism](https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm)** > > One of the Seven Sacraments of the Christian Church; frequently called the 'first sacrament', the 'door of the sacraments', and the 'door of the Church' > [@](#): > > _The fate of infants who die without baptism must be briefly considered here. The Catholic teaching is uncompromising on this point, that all who depart this life without baptism, be it of water, or blood, or desire, are perpetually excluded from the vision of God._ ---
**Author:** ![Mayo\_Speaks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mayo\_Speaks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mayo_Speaks)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/36 "2006-09-03T08:41:42Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] And the 11-year-old girl isn’t innocent? I’m not seeing much respect for _her_ life. The church has a ridiculously simplistic definition of what “life” is. [/QUOTE] IANA Catholic, but I agree with the church on this issue. Here’s how I’d explain it: The innocent girl was raped, which is an unspeakably horrible circumstance. That she became pregnant as a result is even worse. At this point, the two main options are A) get an abortion or B) allow the pregnancy to continue to birth. Both options result in harm to an innocent human, which is terrible. In my eyes, and in the eyes of the Catholic Church, option A is equivalent to murder of the unborn child, and is thus unacceptable. Option B is also unacceptable, since the girl must face the physical challenges that come with pregnancy and childbirth, in addition to the unfair stigma that she will be subjected to. It is a case where the lesser of two evils must be chosen. I believe that an abortion, which results in a loss of a human life, is worse than no abortion, which disrupts (in a huge way) a human life. It is not an easy decision, but the belief is that continuing a life trumps the huge disruption to the girl’s life. It’s not fair at all, and no one would claim that it is. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > [Quote=Lissa] > > I’m still not understanding the church’s position that clearly. > > If a Catholic murdered an adult, they would not be excommunicated. Why is the supposed murder of a fetus that much worse? Because it gives them an opportunity to hurt women. [/quote] Catholics take no pleasure in hurting women. **Lissa** asked a question in good faith, and you responded with an entirely untrue declaration. It is true that saying that a raped woman must carry her pregnancy to birth does hurt the woman. But that is of course not the goal. The goal is to save the life of the fetus, and the woman is hurt along the way. The Catholic Church does not like the fact that their policy hurts women, but they find the alternative (an innocent death) unacceptable. And I agree with them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/37 "2006-09-03T09:12:38Z")
[QUOTE=Mayo Speaks!] At this point, the two main options are A) get an abortion or B) allow the pregnancy to continue to birth. Both options result in harm to an innocent human, which is terrible. [/quote] Only if you look at a fetus as the equal of the girl; an actual, thinking person. That’s an insulting, stupid and vile position to take. It shows contempt for both her and humanity in general. You are equating her with a _thing_, a mindless lump of tissue. [QUOTE=Mayo Speaks!] It is not an easy decision, but the belief is that continuing a life trumps the huge disruption to the girl’s life. [/quote] Of course it’s easy; the people making it are all male, and will never have to make it. [QUOTE=Mayo Speaks!] Catholics take no pleasure in hurting women. **Lissa** asked a question in good faith, and you responded with an entirely untrue declaration. It is true that saying that a raped woman must carry her pregnancy to birth does hurt the woman. But that is of course not the goal. The goal is to save the life of the fetus, and the woman is hurt along the way. The Catholic Church does not like the fact that their policy hurts women, but they find the alternative (an innocent death) unacceptable. [/quote] I judge by behavior, and the Catholic Church - and the majority of Christian groups - have always acted to harm women. They have always been misogynistic. I see no evidence that they have the slightest concern for the woman, at best. They place the fetus above her health and freedom because of their utter contempt for women. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/38 "2006-09-03T10:34:30Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] Thanks for that. It seems to me that the RCC is consistent, if nothing else. On the front end they require celibacy before marriage (IIRC), monogamy after marriage, and burials for aborted babies. Hardly seems that they’re ignoring them. I also seem to remember (IIRC) that both Catholic Social Services and Lutheran Social Services are active in helping to place babies for adoption. [/QUOTE] The problem is that in most of these cases the woman is not aware that she was pregnant. The miscarriage is simply evacuated with the menstrual fluid. To be consistent, the Church would have to make it a policy to examine the menstrual products of every woman to insure that a fetus was not present. As **Duck Duck Goose** has pointed out, if said fetuses are in fact children, they are excluded from the vision of God. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/39 "2006-09-03T11:11:10Z")
Does the RCC make an exception “in cases of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest?” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2006, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/40 "2006-09-03T11:20:15Z")
[QUOTE=Monty] Does the RCC make an exception “in cases of pregnancy resulting from rape or incest?” [/QUOTE] Not in the case cited by the OP. The 11 year old girl was raped by her step-father. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217.md?page=3)