# Vatican Excommunicates Abortion Providers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 2, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217 "2006-09-02T17:23:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/101 "2006-09-04T16:40:24Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] To some, perhaps, but I bet that in the majority of cases it has the opposite effect. “Oh, they want to kick me out because I didn’t follow every rule? Fine. I don’t need them anyway.” It’s like a family disowning a child for being gay. The child has to learn to cope without the support of the family instead of doing the impossible of changing to be not gay. I could no more change my beliefs about abortion than I could change my eye color. And, actually, it’s one of the reasons I did abandon the church. They said “Believe and do this or else,” and I said, “Else. Definitely else.” (The comment about the relatives was a huge exaggeration on my part. None of mine have made the tiniest attempt at “reconverting” the heretic for lots of years now.) [/QUOTE] I don’t know if you are right or wrong, because I don’t personally know anyone who has been formally excommunicated. However, I know MANY people who are pro-choice, and who are devoted, every-week-Mass-attending Catholics. They know full well that the Church considers them excommunicated in spirit, and yet, the sacraments are important to them, and they consider themselves good Catholics. What can I say? The Church is made up of all kinds of people, just as any institution is. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/102 "2006-09-04T16:52:49Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] IThey know full well that the Church considers them excommunicated in spirit, and yet, the sacraments are important to them, and they consider themselves good Catholics. [/QUOTE] My prediction, which is unprovable, would be that if the church got up in their faces and named names, those people would spit in its eye, not change their beliefs. Very few people will try to stay in line with a group that rejects them, attempts to shame or belittle them, or calls them out. Instead, their former allegiance would often turn to hatred and spite. Luther was a priest, after all. > [@Luther](#): > > As for me, the die is cast; I despise alike the favor and fury of Rome; I do not wish to be reconciled with her; or even to hold any communication with her. Let her condemn and burn my books; I, in turn, unless I can find no fire, will condemn and publicly burn the whole pontifical law, that swamp of heresies. Now, it’s possible that more excommunicants return to the church than not, but that is probably influenced by how ostracized they are in their culture. If everyone is a Catholic, it’s hard to be a non-Catholic. In Colombia, it might be hard. In the US, it’s easy. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/103 "2006-09-04T16:59:25Z")
[QUOTE=jsgoddess] My prediction, which is unprovable, would be that if the church got up in their faces and named names, those people would spit in its, not change their beliefs. Very few people will try to stay in line with a group that rejects them, attempts to shame or belittle them, or calls them out. Instead, their former allegiance would often turn to hatred and spite. Luther was a priest, after all. [/QUOTE] I would never assume that a person would change their beliefs based on excommunications. They might be able to spit in the Church’s eye, but I am guessing that it is harder for some than you might think. Schisms ARE caused by this kind of thing, precisely because even some who have taken vows believe that the Vatican is wrong about certain issues, but they don’t consider themselves any less Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/104 "2006-09-04T17:05:12Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I would never assume that a person would change their beliefs based on excommunications. They might be able to spit in the Church’s eye, but I am guessing that it is harder for some than you might think. Schisms ARE caused by this kind of thing, precisely because even some who have taken vows believe that the Vatican is wrong about certain issues, but they don’t consider themselves any less Catholic. [/QUOTE] And in some cases, individual Catholics who are excommunicated for a sin that’s later deemed lesser are in fact “better” Catholics than the Church, and least in terms of time. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/105 "2006-09-04T17:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] Yeah, you’re right! Lets shut down all those mirages that appear to be Catholic hospitals and health services. What do they have to do with “the reduction of human suffering through application of medical ministration”? Nothing! [/QUOTE] Correct. They are advertising, designed to draw people in by pretending benevolence. The positive effects of Catholic charities don’t even begin to make up for for the other, more destructive efforts of the Church; as pointed out, the Church creates plenty of customers for it’s “charity”. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2006, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/106 "2006-09-04T19:35:41Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I’m afraid I have another question. If someone is excommunicated for performing abortions, and then at a later point the Church reconsiders it’s position on abortions such that they’re now ok (I know, it’ll never happen) would that person be automatically…_in_communicated? Would they retroactively be considered a Catholic by the Church? [/QUOTE] Someone who is excommunicated is still a Catholic, they’re just a Catholic in bad standing until they make an act of contrition. I’m pretty sure that act of contrition remains a requirement, even if the Church reverses its stance on what you got excommunicated for. Even though the Church admits you were right all along, you were still disobedient to the rules of the Church and have to make up for that. I could be wrong about that, though. Although I’ve got a lot of Catholics in my family (including my pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, goes-to-Mass-every-Sunday mom) I’m not one myself. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/107 "2006-09-05T18:21:52Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] _The fate of infants who die without baptism must be briefly considered here. The Catholic teaching is uncompromising on this point, that all who depart this life without baptism, be it of water, or blood, or desire, are perpetually excluded from the vision of God._ [/QUOTE] The idea of a God who needs a starship was mind-boggling enough – but a God who need Lasik? ---
**Author:** ![lokij](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/5e9695/32.png) [@lokij](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lokij)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/108 "2006-09-05T19:10:21Z")
This is the most relevant and up to date portion of the Catechism that deals with unbaptised infants. From Part Two, Section Two, Chapter One, Article Six… 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"64 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217/109 "2006-09-05T21:47:11Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] You and I have differed on this before, so I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree (again). I believe that if a person doesn’t believe what the catholic church believes regarding birth control, and if that person behaves in opposition to the official stance on birth control, they are not truly a catholic. Now…if a person wants the catholic stance to change, and they publicly push for that change \*without actually acting against the rules as laid out by the church, \* that’s a different story. I don’t believe you can cherry pick and still be what you claim to be. I know lots of people disagree with that, but that’s how I see it. The church defines the rules. If you don’t willfully follow them (and particularly if the church kicks you out for not following them), you aren’t really what you say you are. You can say you _strive_ to be a catholic, but if you believe abortion and other forms of birth control are ok, and you actively participate in those behaviors, you ain’t catholic (at least not as the religion stands today). [/QUOTE] I think the issue here is amenable to the scientific method, viz, test by observation. Simply invite them for breakfast, serve them oatmeal, and observe whether they put sugar on it! 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-excommunicates-abortion-providers/371217.md?page=5)