Vatican Excommunicates Abortion Providers

It’s a very big deal.

…only if you care. :wink: If the person being shunned doesn’t care that he’s being shunned, then the procedure is pointless–except to the other members of the shunning group, who presumably will be intimidated into conformity, "See what we did to him? It could happen to YOU !! :eek: "

Et cetera.

And so that’s the whole point of the Vatican’s excommunicating the doctors in question: to bring the rest of the flock, who may be considering doing the Abortion Bad Thing, either giving or receiving, into line.

At this point, it would be a welcome respite from my relations trying to get me to go to mass!

But seriously, it smacks of “Do as we say or we’ll make it so you don’t have to do as we say! Nyaaah!” It’s like trying to quit a job and having the boss insist on firing you.

Or perhaps excommunication is one sanction the RCC uses to get certain of its members to return to full communion after changing certain behavior.

I guess it all depends on one’s point of view.

Yes, but one presumes that most Catholics would care, and since you can only be excommunicated if you’re a Catholic to begin with, most excommunications really are a pretty big deal for the excommunicant.

Yeppers. And if it’s that big a deal for the individual, then the individual will “examine his life” and either change to the church’s stance or decide to be estranged.

Y’know, excommunication is probably the best thing for these doctors. Anyone who devotes himself/herself to the reduction of human suffering through application of medical ministration has nothing in common with the Roman Catholic Church. Please, don’t holler “Mother Theresa” in response; no one worked harder to deny birth control to the poverty-stricken of India than that “sainted” woman. The RCC had no choice but to hew to its predestined, damnable course of action. Respect them for it if you will; I damn them for their continued self-imposed and self-glorified ignorance.

Rather a gross generalisation, don’t you think?

It’s a little more complicated than that. A lot of people, even if they disagree with the Church on certain moral issues, still believe strongly in the necessity of the sacraments, especially Holy Communion. It’s about the Church telling you that you have sinned so badly that you have turned your back on God. This is very powerful to a practicing Catholic.

And I don’t think this would accomplish the respite you are looking for. Excommunicants can always be welcomed back with a good confession. You would probably get even MORE pressure from your relations at that point! :slight_smile:

Yeah, you’re right! Lets shut down all those mirages that appear to be Catholic hospitals and health services. What do they have to do with “the reduction of human suffering through application of medical ministration”? Nothing!

Not to mention the fact that there are Catholics feeding the poor & hungry in probably every country in the world. Perhaps this is not “medical ministration,” but it even more fundamental to reducing human suffering.

Somehow I don’t think practicing abortionists are really practicing catholics. I mean, you can’t be both.

That is not true at all. Many practicing Catholics do not live according to all the moral stances of the Church.

You and I have differed on this before, so I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree (again). I believe that if a person doesn’t believe what the catholic church believes regarding birth control, and if that person behaves in opposition to the official stance on birth control, they are not truly a catholic. Now…if a person wants the catholic stance to change, and they publicly push for that change *without actually acting against the rules as laid out by the church, * that’s a different story. I don’t believe you can cherry pick and still be what you claim to be. I know lots of people disagree with that, but that’s how I see it.

The church defines the rules. If you don’t willfully follow them (and particularly if the church kicks you out for not following them), you aren’t really what you say you are. You can say you strive to be a catholic, but if you believe abortion and other forms of birth control are ok, and you actively participate in those behaviors, you ain’t catholic (at least not as the religion stands today).

I don’t think we have differed on this. I agree with you. What I am saying is that not everyone DOES agree with you. Many, many people do not follow the Church’s doctrine, and still consider themselves practicing Catholics. Just because YOU or I or even the CHURCH don’t consider the person to be a good Catholic, doesn’t mean that THEY don’t, or that the sacraments aren’t important to them. Many of them feel their role is to try to change the Church from within. Many of them just decide that their own conscience is their guide. This does NOT mean that they wish to be cut off from the sacraments, or personally feel that they are not entitiled to them. There is a very good chance that these abortion doctors in question go to Mass every week, consider themselves to be Catholic, and may be devastated at the idea that they can no longer receive the sacraments.

I’m afraid I have another question.

If someone is excommunicated for performing abortions, and then at a later point the Church reconsiders it’s position on abortions such that they’re now ok (I know, it’ll never happen) would that person be automatically…incommunicated? Would they retroactively be considered a Catholic by the Church?

(Maybe we do agree on this one. I know we disagreed on something! ;))

Well, the way I look at it, it’s like someone saying they’re a doctor when they’re only a nurse. Sure, the can call themselves anything they’d like, but that doesn’t make it accurate.

I think it would be more accurate if they called themselves christians, as I’ve never heard that christ actually took a stance against abortion.

Signed,

– Kalhoun (astrophysicist and gourmet cook)
(Hey! I once made a model of the solar system and I adore French restaurants!) :smiley:

I’m pretty sure that’s how it would work. I wouldn’t hold my breath, though! :slight_smile:

And here, once again, the Catholic Church shoots itself in the foot via its opposition to birth control. I mean, what is the logical effect of their opposition to birth control in Thrid World countries? Many more children born to poverty, disease and starvation. Why, a cynical fellow might take the position that the opposition to birht control and abortion is just a ploy to ensure that all those hospitals and whatnot have plenty of customers. After all, isn’t the Catholic Church the strongest among Third Worlders?

When you look at the disconnect between what the Catholic Church says it’s about (love, respect for human life) and some of the shit it gets up to when it acts (forcing unbelievers to give up their right to abortion and birth control, those depraved Magdalene laundries cited earlier, pederast preist protecting, and forbidding women ordination) well, cynicism seems like the only rational response to anything the Catholic leadership SAYS it’s up to. Nice church ya got there.

To some, perhaps, but I bet that in the majority of cases it has the opposite effect.

“Oh, they want to kick me out because I didn’t follow every rule? Fine. I don’t need them anyway.”

It’s like a family disowning a child for being gay. The child has to learn to cope without the support of the family instead of doing the impossible of changing to be not gay.

I could no more change my beliefs about abortion than I could change my eye color. And, actually, it’s one of the reasons I did abandon the church. They said “Believe and do this or else,” and I said, “Else. Definitely else.”

(The comment about the relatives was a huge exaggeration on my part. None of mine have made the tiniest attempt at “reconverting” the heretic for lots of years now.)