# Vatican: Nuns should spend less time on social justice.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349 "2012-04-20T01:42:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Oly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oly/32/8255_2.png) [@Oly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/1 "2012-04-20T01:42:42Z")
[…and more time railing against gay marriage, contraception and abortion.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-religion-catholic-womenbre83j001-20120419,0,7403096.story) Basically, they should stop thinking for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/2 "2012-04-20T01:58:14Z")
Benedict just isn’t a very progressive guy, even by Vatican standards. You’d think the Catholic church would have figured out by now that they don’t get very far criticizing the one group in their organization that people actually respect and admire. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/3 "2012-04-20T02:38:09Z")
I’m sort of amused wondering what exactly the Pope thinks a group of Nuns could do to fight Gay Marriage if they decided to spend more time doing so. But yea, its just another example of the Church shooting itself in the foot. Nuns I’ve know have been far more interested in the social work and education aspects of the calling, and much less interested in sexual politics. Moving the focus from the former to the latter will just result in fewer people becoming Nuns. Its all the more egregious since the Pope doesn’t have any disagreement, at least in theory, with any specific thing the Nuns are doing. He just feels their time would be better spent as sex-police. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/4 "2012-04-20T02:46:22Z")
“Dopey fucked a penguin! Dopey fucked a penguin!” (Out of deference and respect to our Catholic Dopers, I have refrained from posting the entire joke, just the punchline…) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/5 "2012-04-20T03:05:36Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Its all the more egregious since the Pope doesn’t have any disagreement, at least in theory, with any specific thing the Nuns are doing. He just feels their time would be better spent as sex-police. No, according the OP’s linked article, he also specifically takes issue with their venturing to dissent from official opinions of the Church hierarchy: > [@](#): > > It also reprimanded American nuns for expressing positions on political issues that differed, at times, from views held by American bishops. Public disagreement with the bishops - “who are the church’s authentic teachers of faith and morals” - is unacceptable, the report said. For instance, many nuns in the Leadership Council of Women Religious (the organization that got the smackdown from the Vatican) signed a statement of support for the 2010 health care bill, even though it was opposed by bishops as permitting government funding for abortions. And the Vatican is also cross with the Council for supporting theological discussions, seminars, etc., that call into question current doctrine about homosexuality and other sexuality/feminism issues. (PBS interview transcript [here](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/religion/jan-june12/vatican_04-19.html).) Good for the nuns, sez I. A lot of people complain that Catholics in general aren’t doing anything to reform or modernize their church, but I think that’s a bit like the “where are all the moderate Muslims condemning Islamist extremism” complaint: the moderates and reformers are out there, but they usually don’t get much coverage because hardliners make better news. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/6 "2012-04-20T03:06:07Z")
I got a flashback to the time of the civil rights in America, I think it was in the documentary _Eyes on the price_ from PBS. IIRC A white Nun that was on one of the walks organized by Martin Luther King was slapped or had stones thrown at her by young white punks that opposed the marching people, later she mentioned that she knew some of the kids that did that as belonging to church groups she once thought; she commented that she felt sorry that their actions showed that she and others did not teach them well or enough about compassion and values. Now, we can not have that kind of training distracting our youth, eh pope Ratzi? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/7 "2012-04-20T03:19:32Z")
I don’t see a debate. Off to The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/8 "2012-04-20T03:47:19Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I’m sort of amused wondering what exactly the Pope thinks a group of Nuns could do to fight Gay Marriage if they decided to spend more time doing so. The “less time on curing social ills” part is the real agenda. It’s a common group dynamic – the slackers put pressure on the achievers to quit making them look bad. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/9 "2012-04-20T04:00:40Z")
I’ve always sort of admired many American nuns for their stance on certain issues like anti-death penalty activism. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/10 "2012-04-20T04:10:51Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I got a flashback to the time of the civil rights in America, I think it was in the documentary _Eyes on the price_ from PBS. Nitpick: It’s _Eyes on the **Prize** _. “Eyes on the price” sounds like Bob Barker asking Malcolm X how much a dishwasher costs. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/11 "2012-04-20T04:19:22Z")
So these nuns just discovered they belong to one of the most autocratic, socially conservative, morally rigid, cumbersome, male-dominated organisations on the planet. As Jeffery Bernard would say, you’d think you could see a train coming when you are standing on the tracks. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/12 "2012-04-20T04:28:32Z")
The OP either doesn’t have any idea of what’s going on in the Church or is deliberately re-telling the story in terms he/she knows will make the Pope look worst. The reality is, there aren’t nearly as many nuns in the Western nations as there once were. The nuns we DO have are increasingly either elderly and retired or pushing the limits of orthodoxy. When you have nuns proclaiming that they’ve moved “beyond Jesus,” you can’t very well expect the Pope to smile nonchalantly. The Church does NOT want nuns to give up their work in social justice- but nuns can’t be allowed to reject Church teaching and authroity if they still wish to call themselves Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/13 "2012-04-20T04:29:04Z")
Are the Abbesses getting uppity? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/14 "2012-04-20T04:44:45Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > When you have nuns proclaiming that they’ve moved “beyond Jesus,” Do you have a cite for the organization in question saying they’ve moved “beyond Jesus”. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/15 "2012-04-20T04:54:44Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The OP either doesn’t have any idea of what’s going on in the Church or is deliberately re-telling the story in terms he/she knows will make the Pope look worst. > > The reality is, there aren’t nearly as many nuns in the Western nations as there once were. The nuns we DO have are increasingly either elderly and retired or pushing the limits of orthodoxy. > > When you have nuns proclaiming that they’ve moved “beyond Jesus,” you can’t very well expect the Pope to smile nonchalantly. > > The Church does NOT want nuns to give up their work in social justice- but nuns can’t be allowed to reject Church teaching and authroity if they still wish to call themselves Catholic. No, the nuns’ problem is that they’re tethered to the dead weight of the Catholic Church. What woman would want to associate herself with THAT organization? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/16 "2012-04-20T05:01:08Z")
“But I thought I could change him…” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/17 "2012-04-20T05:05:58Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Do you have a cite for the organization in question saying they’ve moved “beyond Jesus”. **astorian** is quoting a commonly quoted snippet from a 2007 keynote address to the LCWR given by one of the American nuns, Sr. Laurie Brink, which was entitled “A Marginal Life: Pursuing Holiness in the 21st Century”. You can read substantial excerpts from her address [here](http://catholickey.blogspot.com/2009/04/why-lcwr-is-being-investigated.html). The headings of her talk were the available options for women religious communities in a period of precipitous membership decline: > [@](#): > > Sr. Laurie identifies four directions religious are being pushed or pulled and discusses the merits of each: > > 1. Death with Dignity and Grace > 2. Acquiescence to Others’ Expectations > 3. Sojourning in a New Land not yet Known > 4. Reconciliation for the Sake of the Mission The passage in question, relating to direction (3), says: > [@](#): > > The dynamic option for Religious Life, which I am calling, Sojourning, is much more difficult to discuss, since it involves moving beyond the Church, even beyond Jesus. A sojourning congregation is no longer ecclesiastical. It has grown beyond the bounds of institutional religion. Its search for the Holy may have begun rooted in Jesus as the Christ, but deep reflection, study and prayer have opened it up to the spirit of the Holy in all of creation. Religious titles, institutional limitations, ecclesiastical authorities no longer fit this congregation, which in most respects is Post-Christian. > > When religious communities embraced the spirit of renewal in the 1970s, they took seriously that the world was no longer the enemy, that a sense of ecumenism required encountering the holy “other,” and that the God of Jesus might well be the God of Moses and the God of Mohammed. The works of Thomas Merton encouraged an exploration of the nexus between Eastern and Western religious practices. The emergence of the women’s movement with is concomitant critique of religion invited women everywhere to use a hermeneutical lens of suspicion when reading the androcentric Scriptures and the texts of the Tradition. With a new lens, women also began to see the divine within nature, the value and importance of the cosmos, and that the emerging new cosmology encouraged their spirituality and fed their souls. > > As one sister described it, “I was rooted in the story of Jesus, and it remains at my core, but I’ve also moved beyond Jesus.” The Jesus narrative is not the only or the most important narrative for these women. They still hold up and reverence the values of the Gospel, but they also recognize that these same values are not solely the property of Christianity. Buddhism, Native American spirituality, Judaism, Islam and others hold similar tenets for right behavior within the community, right relationship with the earth and right relationship with the Divine. With these insights come a shattering or freeing realization—depending on where you stand. Jesus is not the only son of God. Salvation is not limited to Christians. Wisdom is found in the traditions of the Church as well as beyond it. […] > > Who’s to say that the movement beyond Christ is not, in reality, a movement into the very heart of God? A movement the ecclesiastical system would not recognize. A wholly new way of being holy that is integrative, non-dominating, and inclusive. But a whole new way that is also not Catholic Religious Life. The Benedictine Women of Madison are the most current example I can name. Their commitment to ecumenism led them beyond the exclusivity of the Catholic Church into a new inclusivity, where all manner of seeking God is welcomed. They are certainly religious women, but they are no longer women religious as it is defined by the Roman Catholic Church. Personally, this sounds to me reasonably in line with typical post-Vatican II “liberal fringe” Catholicism, although I recognize that it is extremely radical from the perspective of the very conservative JPII/Benedict papal hierarchy. I am not particularly surprised that the Vatican opened up a can of investigative whoop-ass on the LCWR as a result of it. ETA: Those interested in reading the full text of Sr. Laurie’s address can find it [here](http://www.lcwr.org/sites/default/files/calendar/attachments/2007_Keynote_Address-Laurie_Brink-OP.pdf) (pdf). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/18 "2012-04-20T05:07:50Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The OP either doesn’t have any idea of what’s going on in the Church or is deliberately re-telling the story in terms he/she knows will make the Pope look worst. > > The reality is, there aren’t nearly as many nuns in the Western nations as there once were. The nuns we DO have are increasingly either elderly and retired or pushing the limits of orthodoxy. > > When you have nuns proclaiming that they’ve moved “beyond Jesus,” you can’t very well expect the Pope to smile nonchalantly. > > The Church does NOT want nuns to give up their work in social justice- but nuns can’t be allowed to reject Church teaching and authroity if they still wish to call themselves Catholic. They can call themselves anything they want. All Christians who take the Nicean Creed can and do call themselves catholic. What you mean is Roman Catholic. And they can do anything legal they want to. It isn’t as if they are going to have their pay docked or be fired. They can leave the church, sue it and get a nice settlement for the fraud and broken promises made to them by their order and the church. Christ spoke plenty about helping the sick and poor and throwing the hypocrite money changers from the Temple. He spoke not at all about contraception, and he personally treated women with the respect a Jewish man normally accords his mother. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/19 "2012-04-20T09:46:47Z")
Can’t they also just stay in and not do what the Pope says, since he’s not speaking _ex cathedra_? Isn’t everyone in the Church free to disagree with anything that the Pope says when he is not speaking infallibly? Isn’t that why some people still say they are Catholic even though they almost completely disagree with the Pope? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/20 "2012-04-20T10:16:02Z")
That would be a triple “yep”, **BigT**. Each order and convent will decide what to do, but in the end it’s more a matter of what the nuns _talk_ about publically than about their _work_. That is, unless Ratzi is planning on shutting down not just every Order whose chapter says it’s dedicated to teaching or to taking care of the infirm (yeah, sure, we’ll shut down the Sisters of Mercy, great PR coup, dude!) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349.md?page=2)