# Vatican: Nuns should spend less time on social justice.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349 "2012-04-20T01:42:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/61 "2012-04-21T15:32:23Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > I suspect a lot of the tension between the Nuns and the current Church is due to the current leadership (and given the age of the average Nun, much of the membership) of the Sisters joined around the time of Vatican II and expected the Church to continue liberalizing. So I’m not sure they really did know what they were getting themselves into. > > My mothers family are religious Catholics (and includes several Nuns), and they’re sort of like this. They’re very attached to the idea of the Church as the dynamic, socially active, more ecumenical organization they pictured it was becoming in the 60’s, and are continuously disappointed as the Popes succeeding John XXIII have instead been focused on using the Church as international sex-police. I grew up in the same Catholic Church with a lot of family friends who were nuns and very cool people in the 1970s. Many of them were older women, who joined in reaction to nuns in Europe who helped refugees, hid Jews, and really made an important difference. Nuns were protesting nuclear proliferation and getting arrested. They were fighting for civil rights. And while “obedience” was part of the vows, I’m not sure they saw it anymore as complete obedience to the hierarchy or believed that hierarchy would ever be at odds with what they believed was the Work of God. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/62 "2012-04-21T15:38:54Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > As Jeffery Bernard would say, you’d think you could see a train coming when you are standing on the tracks. Not if you’re facing the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/63 "2012-04-21T16:43:08Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > I didn’t realize there was a Roman Inquisition. Nobody expects the Roman Inquisition! > [@](#): > > What are its chief weapons? Cleric class spells and blunt weapons, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/64 "2012-04-21T17:39:15Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > As usual, [Cecil has the answer.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1164/how-do-i-go-about-getting-excommunicated) > > How heretical do you want to be? Give your dog communion with a milk bone? Shout “Jesus is a poopyhead” during Mass? Or are you just going to quietly turn Protestant? > [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Ooo, I want to give communion to a dog! The only problem there is that I never went through Confirmation…I can’t be a Eucharistic Minister. > > I was thinking a bit more extreme than Protestant…maybe Pastafarian or Subgenius. 🙂 Hm, what about getting declared bishop by that guy who says everybody is a pope? Or pick a new [religion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_new_religious_movements) and nip into line … I myself am a mail order [minister](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Life_Church). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/65 "2012-04-21T17:43:04Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Those nuns should be more like [Mother Angelica](http://korrektivpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/mother-angelica1.jpg) (the scariest religious personage I’ve ever seen on TV) I followed this link, and I was convinced it was a Saturday Night Live character possibly played by John Belushi until I Googled her. Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/66 "2012-04-21T17:54:56Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I followed this link, and I was convinced it was a Saturday Night Live character possibly played by John Belushi until I Googled her. Jesus. I think I had her for a teacher in 4th grade… ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/67 "2012-04-21T18:46:35Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think I had her for a teacher in 4th grade… Unless you speak fluent Latin and tear up when you see a ruler, I doubt that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/68 "2012-04-21T19:34:22Z")
_Ego loqui fluens porcum latina, si iuvat._ ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/69 "2012-04-22T22:47:18Z")
The nuns I work with kick butt. They are far more often admirable people than your average girl. Like everyone else, they have to reconcile themselves to things they can do nothing about. Those may be different than your things. My guess is that the nuns who didn’t follow the mass exodus into secular life following the feminist movement in the 1970’s mostly stayed because they found their lives as nuns fulfilling and meaningful. Personally, I find ignorant rants about the Catholic Church as dull as ignorant rants about anything else. Why do a billion people belong to it? Are they all every single one utterly stupid and misguided? Or could there maybe be, gasp, nuance, ambivalence, a mixture of bad and good? Are you really so much smarter than Thomas Aquinas? I know people who have spent their whole lives in search of a church where they could have a spiritual feeling without anything being said or promoted that they disagreed with in any way. Amazingly enough they are still looking decades later. I don’t defend the Catholic Church when it does evil, and the present Pope is certainly rather a blight. I trust that the nuns will follow their consciences before they will follow the Pope’s dicta when they are in conflict with each other. In fact I depend on them to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2012, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/70 "2012-04-22T23:08:26Z")
Great post Ulfreida, I really mean that. And if the nuns need to follow their consciences, they can do like a certain monk once did and say “Here I stand, I can do no other”\* \*Okay, that particular line may be apocryphal, but it was what he meant. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/71 "2012-04-23T05:24:35Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Jesus be damned, eh? Indeed. > [@Jesus Christ](#): > > 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. > 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ > > 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ > > 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ > > 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ > > 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ > > 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ > > 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” It would be nice if some Christians would, you know, read the damn book every now and again. ---
**Author:** ![Amasia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Amasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amasia)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/72 "2012-04-23T05:55:56Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > As someone who has nothing but contempt for “social justice,” I wholeheartedly agree with the pope on this one. Any chance you could explain why you have contempt for “social justice” Or maybe at least how you define it? If you’d rather PM me your response, that’d be fine. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/73 "2012-04-23T06:29:17Z")
Obviously I’m not Crafty, but I feel confident saying that it’s pretty much a case of “Holy crap, all I have going for me is that I’m a straight white guy. If not for bigotry, I’d have nothing!” ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/74 "2012-04-23T06:38:32Z")
> [@WolfpackJeep](#): > > Is **Crafter\_Man** trying to be funny? I really can’t tell. > > How hard is it to get yourself excommunicated from the Catholic Church? I haven’t attended since 2002 or so, but I really don’t want to be associated with these jackasses anymore. > [@coffeecat](#): > > As usual, [Cecil has the answer.](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1164/how-do-i-go-about-getting-excommunicated) How heretical do you want to be? Give your dog communion with a milk bone? Shout “Jesus is a poopyhead” during Mass? Or are you just going to quietly turn Protestant? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think if you perform or assist in a certain number of abortions, you get to move to the front of the line. It also might be necessary for you to be famous, though. Why waste a perfectly good excommunication on some nobody when there are plenty of John Kerrys out there!? If **Jeep’s Phoenix** started appointing bishops left and right, that might get somebody’s attention. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/75 "2012-04-23T06:41:47Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And while “obedience” was part of the vows, I’m not sure they saw it anymore as complete obedience to the hierarchy or believed that hierarchy would ever be at odds with what they believed was the Work of God. The obedience in the standard three monacal vows is to the Abbott/Abbess; the Jesuits are the only ones who have a fourth vow of direct obedience to the Pope. Why that fourth vow? For several reasons, a few off the top of my mind: They were founded in the middle of the Reformation, when new foundations were being heavily scrutinized and a bunch of guys led by an unordained ex-soldier were extremely suspicious. Ignatius Loyola knew his boys would have argued theology with God and human laws with the Devil if he didn’t put a stopper on it - here, big stopper: “I promise that whenever the Pope tells me to shut up, I will say ‘yes, Your Holiness’ and then proceed to shut the fuck up”. He had seen more than his share of troops rising against their Captains led by those Captains’ own Lieutenants; Henry VIII’s CofE was pretty much a religious version, although by no means the only one that had ever been… the history of the Church is full of arguments, more than one of them leading to blows or to outright massacres. By adding that fourth vow, the Jesuits point to the Pope as the ultimate arbiter of any argument one of them is involved in. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/76 "2012-04-23T06:43:21Z")
> [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](#): > > Indeed. > > It would be nice if some Christians would, you know, read the damn book every now and again. We do, it’s the interpretation that gets us in trouble. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/77 "2012-04-23T06:50:45Z")
Try interpreting it as modern dance, that is probably pretty harmless. Probably. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/78 "2012-04-23T07:14:00Z")
> [@Oly](#): > > […and more time railing against gay marriage, contraception and abortion.](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-religion-catholic-womenbre83j001-20120419,0,7403096.story) Basically, they should stop thinking for themselves. Since when are nuns supposed to think for themselves anyway?! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/79 "2012-04-23T11:13:16Z")
It seems like what the report is saying isn’t “Stop spending time on social justice issues”. It’s “Stop taking positions, like the moral goodness of homosexuality and supporting the ordination of women, that the church has already decided against, and start paying attention to some things the church feels is important, like abortion.” It looks like it actually praised the group for its work with the poor. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/80 "2012-04-23T14:22:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Try interpreting it as modern dance, that is probably pretty harmless. Probably. Oh no, my mother’s church did that once. It was anything but harmless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349.md?page=5)