# Vatican: Nuns should spend less time on social justice.... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349 "2012-04-20T01:42:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![WolfpackJeep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpackjeep/32/2921_2.png) [@WolfpackJeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WolfpackJeep)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/81 "2012-04-23T23:07:37Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > If **Jeep’s Phoenix** started appointing bishops left and right, that might get somebody’s attention. I can start by appointing the neighborhood kitty (whose name may or may not be Cotton) as the Bishop of Modern Dance based on his spectacular performance in response to repeated bird bombings. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/82 "2012-04-24T01:15:45Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > Oh no, my mother’s church did that once. It was anything but harmless. Same here (ours, not anyone’s mother’s.) Hey, was your mother’s church’s group by any chance led by a lady deacon? We may be talking the same parish. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/83 "2012-04-24T02:30:47Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Same here (ours, not anyone’s mother’s.) Hey, was your mother’s church’s group by any chance led by a lady deacon? We may be talking the same parish. No, I married into the Episcopal Church. My mother is at Pullen. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/84 "2012-04-24T15:16:34Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It seems like what the report is saying isn’t “Stop spending time on social justice issues”. It’s “Stop taking positions, like the moral goodness of homosexuality and supporting the ordination of women, that the church has already decided against, and start paying attention to some things the church feels is important, like abortion.” It looks like it actually praised the group for its work with the poor. Do you by any chance have a link to the actual report? I’d like to see it for myself so I can see what all the hubub is about. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/85 "2012-04-24T15:32:14Z")
Have I mentioned yet my shock and outrage that the RCC is telling people what their morality should be and how they should spend their time? Vote with your feet, people. Back away slowly at first, and then turn and run. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/86 "2012-04-24T19:01:53Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Why not? Its their Church too, isn’t it? At some level, sure, but it is a bit of a hollow statement. It is no more their church than it would be, for example, a teacher’s school district. Sure, a teacher can contribute feedback, sit in on meetings, petition the union, but ultimately has no control of the policies or rules of the greater organization. At the end of the day they have to do what is mandated from above. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/87 "2012-04-24T19:16:00Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > At some level, sure, but it is a bit of a hollow statement. It is no more their church than it would be, for example, a teacher’s school district. Sure, a teacher can contribute feedback, sit in on meetings, petition the union, but ultimately has no control of the policies or rules of the greater organization. At the end of the day they have to do what is mandated from above. Or what? Other than excommunication - AKA the Nuclear Option - what can the Vatican actually do to the nuns? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/88 "2012-04-24T19:33:11Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Or what? Other than excommunication - AKA the Nuclear Option - what can the Vatican actually do to the nuns? Send them to do missionary work in Somalia. This is more or less what happened to French bishop Mgr. Gaillot, a problematic bishop with modern opinions who used his see to rant against wars (notably the first Gulf War), to express support for minorities and homosexuals, leniency for abortion and so forth. Excommunicating a bishop would have been a bit of a PR nightmare, so they revoked him as bishop of Evreux and made him bishop of [Partenia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partenia), a bishopric which doesn’t even exist any more. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/89 "2012-04-25T00:05:53Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > At some level, sure, but it is a bit of a hollow statement. It is no more their church than it would be, for example, a teacher’s school district. Sure, a teacher can contribute feedback, sit in on meetings, petition the union, but ultimately has no control of the policies or rules of the greater organization. At the end of the day they have to do what is mandated from above. Your teacher/school district analogy is in some ways useful but in some ways not. Teachers are employees of an organisation that has legally enforceable control over the situation: the school district legally controls the fabric of the school, and legally controls the operations of the school. It can ultimately give legally enforceable directions to the teachers which the teachers can either obey or resign. However, many religious orders own their own land and buildings and have their own income. So such orders can only be controlled by political means. Ultimately, this category of order could tell the RCC to get stuffed and the RCC’s own internal canon law is, in the end, materially impotent (at least in any first world country with a separation of church and state). Of course, other religous orders rely on the RCC for material support which can be pulled from under them, so the RCC’s material and legally enforceable control is greater. There was an example of this sort of thing in Brisbane recently where a particular priest developed his own style of worship and a charismatic following but he was the parish priest in an RCC church. Ultimately, the RCC relied on its legal control of the church to turf him out. He has now formed what he styles “St Mary’s in Exile” and I think he has a following but I doubt it will last, though I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Beastly\_Rotter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@Beastly\_Rotter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beastly_Rotter)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/90 "2012-04-25T00:40:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Excommunicating a bishop would have been a bit of a PR nightmare, so they revoked him as bishop of Evreux and made him bishop of [Partenia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partenia), a bishopric which doesn’t even exist any more. Long time no see. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/91 "2012-04-25T10:18:04Z")
> [@Beastly\_Rotter](#): > > Long time no see. Well played, sir. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/92 "2012-04-25T19:48:05Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Have I mentioned yet my shock and outrage that the RCC is telling people what their morality should be and how they should spend their time? > > Vote with your feet, people. Back away slowly at first, and then turn and run. That really isn’t a good answer for a woman in her fifties or sixties or seventies who has been a nun since her twenties. She is dependent on the church, far more than stay at home spouse is dependent on her husband. And for a younger woman, who might be able to establish herself outside the walls, leaving means abandoning those sisters who can’t leave. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/93 "2012-04-25T19:50:31Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > That really isn’t a good answer for a woman in her fifties or sixties or seventies who has been a nun since her twenties. She is dependent on the church, far more than stay at home spouse is dependent on her husband. > > And for a younger woman, who might be able to establish herself outside the walls, leaving means abandoning those sisters who can’t leave. It’s the worst possible answer, except for all the other ones. If they can’t run, then limp away. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/94 "2012-04-25T22:43:33Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Do you by any chance have a link to the actual report? I’d like to see it for myself so I can see what all the hubub is about. [Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious](http://www.usccb.org/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=55544). Repeat of my previous link to the [original keynote address by Sr. Laurie Brink](https://lcwr.org/sites/default/files/calendar/attachments/2007_Keynote_Address-Laurie_Brink-OP.pdf) that the assessment singled out in Section II for some tsk-tsking. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/95 "2012-04-26T00:06:56Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > It’s the worst possible answer, except for all the other ones. > > If they can’t run, then limp away. To where? They don’t qualify for social security. They often don’t have good connections outside. The religious life is very cult like. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/96 "2012-04-26T03:35:10Z")
I think the pitying tone here for the poor old nuns quivering helpless before the threats of an increasingly militant hardline conservative male Church hierarchy is, if not a tad condescending, at least a bit naive. Liberal reformist nuns are definitely caught on the wrong side of history at this particular historical moment, but they seem to be quite well aware that in the long run the crisis of reform is likely to come around and bite the hardliners. As Sr. Laurie noted in the address I linked to above, > [@](#): > > It is painfully clear to most Catholics, even the ones who vote Republican and listen to Mother Angelica, that all is not right between the faithful and the leadership in our Church. Seems the more theologically educated the American laity become, the more edgy the hierarchy. […] > > Lay ecclesial ministers are feeling disenfranchised. Catholic theologians are denied academic freedom. Religious and lay women feel scrutinized simply because of their biology. Gays and lesbians desire to participate as fully human, fully sexual Catholics within their parishes. And young adults are drifting away from the very elements that once strengthened religious ties, set moral high ground, and created community. The hierarchy of our Church is right to feel alarmed. What is at stake is the very heart of the Church itself. But the cardinals and bishops may be so busy putting out brush fires that they fail to see the coming conflagration, at least as concerns the American church. […] > > “When the climate in church or society does not welcome voices that differ, women and men with an authentic passion for the proclamation of truth need the courage and integrity required to speak the truth they see and to take the consequences for their speech…” […] > > Well, the true prophet never wants the title, and real prophetic actions cost. Shall we line up with Miriam, Deborah, Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Catherine of Siena? Or shall we excuse ourselves because we are too old, too financially-strapped, too disenchanted, too disaffected? […] What is being deliberately contemplated here is a sort of _satyagraha_ movement of non-belligerent but determined resistance to clearly perceived abuse and injustice, not a flock of helpless old biddies saying “oh dear, what would become of me if I left the Order?”. Mind you, I’m sure there are plenty of helpless old biddies among Catholic sisterhoods, but the ones who are catching all this heat from the Vatican don’t seem to fall into that category. If they want to stay in their Church and continue to protest against what they see as wrong in it rather than “limping away” from it in defeat, all I can say is, “You go, girl”. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/97 "2012-04-26T07:19:09Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Mind you, I’m sure there are plenty of helpless old biddies among Catholic sisterhoods, but the ones who are catching all this heat from the Vatican don’t seem to fall into that category. Can’t remember having ever met one, and I’m including the ones with Alzheimer’s (such as this 69yo farmer girl who’s driving her congregation crazy with wanting to open the chapel at 2am), Parkinson’s (like that one who would classify threads by color when she was too twitchy to thread needles) or strokes (there was that one who still had the best voice in the congregation - they wheeled her bed to the hallway outside the chapel so she could take part in the singing). Do they depend on their sisters? Sure, but that’s why they call each other “sister” in the first place. I do agree with you that many people seem to be underestimating them. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/98 "2012-04-26T11:35:24Z")
I had 3 close relatives who were Catholic nuns,one left before her final vows, one left after a break down,the other is still a nun in her 90’s (had several breakdowns during her over 70 years as a nun)… and I can assure you they are no better than any other woman. They have their good points and bad, like any human. Hollywood seemed to make the Nuns and priests so much different then they are in reality. Same goes for a relative who is a priest. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349/99 "2012-04-26T11:38:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Actually, he’d even be in conflict with the views of the Pope, because the Catholic church DOES indeed believe in social justice. (Of course, Papa Razi isn’t very keen on pushing it. But yeah, the church is pretty big on charity and working on helping those in need) I would add; it seems to me the Church’s stand on birth control causes the need for charity,so they should be doing a lot more. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-nuns-should-spend-less-time-on-social-justice/619349.md?page=4)