# Vatican vs Holy See (also Cote d'Ivorie) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 24, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-vs-holy-see-also-cote-divorie/144773 "2002-12-24T21:40:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-vs-holy-see-also-cote-divorie/144773/1 "2002-12-24T21:40:37Z")
What is the difference between Holy See and Vatican City. Some almanacs call the country Holy See some call it Vatican City. Also why do they say Ivory Coast changed its name to Cote d’Ivorie? Isn’t Cote d’Ivorie just Ivory Coast in French? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-vs-holy-see-also-cote-divorie/144773/2 "2002-12-24T22:10:39Z")
A _see_ is the religious seat of a bishop. The Holy See is the location of the ecclesiastical authority of the bishop pf Rome, the pope. The Vatcan State is an internationally recognized independent country that would continue to exist (in theory) if the Catholic Church decided to move the papal offices to some other location. The fact that they share the identical land and are ruled by the identical people makes them somewhat interchangeable as terms to identify them. (Although I do not recall seeing any recent references to the Vatican as the Holy See in a secular setting.) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-vs-holy-see-also-cote-divorie/144773/3 "2002-12-25T00:19:37Z")
Although it seems possible that the State of Vatican City might continue to exist if the Papacy moved back to France, it’s the Papacy itself with which other nations maintain diplomatic relations. From the U.S. State Department’s [Background Note: the Holy See](http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3819.htm) (which is also an example of a reference to the Vatican as the Holy See in a secular setting): > [@](#): > > The term “Holy See” refers to the composite of the authority, jurisdiction, and sovereignty vested in the Pope and his advisers to direct the worldwide Roman Catholic Church. As the “central government” of the Roman Catholic Church, the Holy See has a legal personality that allows it to enter into treaties as the juridical equal of a state and to send and receive diplomatic representatives. The Holy See has formal diplomatic relations with 166 nations, including the United States. Libya, Guyana, and Angola established diplomatic relations in 1997. > > Created in 1929 to administer properties belonging to the Holy See in Rome, the State of the Vatican City is recognized under international law and enters into international agreements. Unlike the Holy See, it does not receive or send diplomatic representatives. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-vs-holy-see-also-cote-divorie/144773/4 "2002-12-25T03:23:48Z")
I can’t find a particular reason why Ivory Coast wanted to go by its French name of Cote D’Ivoire (with some more diacritics), other than that is what the leaders of country wanted to be called. If you refuse to answer to one name, that usually does it. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2002, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vatican-vs-holy-see-also-cote-divorie/144773/5 "2002-12-25T05:02:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* . . . they share the identical land and are ruled by the identical people makes them somewhat interchangeable as terms to identify them . . ._\* Well, not quite. If the Holy See has any land, it is the diocese of Rome which is considerably bigger than the Vatican City State - most of the diocese is in Italy. But the Holy See is probably better thought of as a sovereign organisation rather than a sovereign state. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* . . . (Although I do not recall seeing any recent references to the > Vatican as the Holy See in a secular setting.) \*\* Diplomatic and international relations are always with the Holy See, not the Vatican (except that the Vatican has a few international agreements with Italy or with Rome dealing with mundane matters like sewage and rail connections). The Vatican City State has existed since 1929, and was established by the Lateran Treaty between Italy and the Holy See. The Holy See has existed as an internationally recognised sovereign entity for . . . oh, gosh, for a very long time, probably since the fall of the Roman Empire in the Fifth century. So they most definitely are not the same thing.