# VC recipient found to have committed war-crimes: Ben Roberts-Smith **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 5, 2023, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010 "2023-06-05T03:10:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/1 "2023-06-05T03:10:40Z")
An Australian SAS soldier, Ben Roberts-Smith, brought a defamation claim against a couple of news outlets and three journalists who had published that the Victoria Cross recipient had committed serious crimes, including murdering civilians in Afghanistan. On Thursday, the (civil) court found that the allegations raised by the media and individual journalists were essentially true, so no defamation had occurred. #### Judgment On 1 June 2023, Justice Anthony Besanko dismissed the defamation case brought by Roberts-Smith, finding that the newspapers on trial, _The Sydney Morning Herald_, _The Age_ and _The Canberra Times_, had established substantial or contextual truth of many of their allegations, including allegations that Roberts-Smith “broke the moral and legal rules of military engagement and is therefore a criminal”, and “disgraced his country Australia and the Australian army.”[[49]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-:0-49)[[50]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-Visontay-50) As a defamation suit is a civil proceeding, Besanko considered the evidence using the civil standard of proof on the [“balance of probabilities”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof_(law)#Preponderance_of_the_evidence) and not the higher standard of proof [“beyond reasonable doubt”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_doubt) as used in criminal proceedings.[[49]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-:0-49)[[51]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-51) Besanko found that three murder allegations against Roberts-Smith had been proven.[[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-committedwar-11) Besanko found that it was substantially true that during the Darwan mission in 2012, Roberts-Smith “murdered an unarmed and defenceless Afghan civilian, by kicking him off a cliff and procuring the soldiers under his command to shoot him”; and that during the Whiskey 108 mission in 2009, Roberts-Smith committed two murders, one murder “by pressuring a newly deployed and inexperienced SASR soldier to execute an elderly, unarmed Afghan in order to ‘blood the rookie’”, and the other murder Roberts-Smith committed “by machine gunning a man with a prosthetic leg”; Roberts-Smith later asked other soldiers to drink using the prosthetic leg.[[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-committedwar-11)[[52]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-52)[[53]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-53) It was also ruled that two allegations of murder at Syahchow and Fasil in 2012 were not proven.[[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-committedwar-11)[[50]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-Visontay-50) Besanko separately found that it was proven that Roberts-Smith in 2010 physically attacked an unarmed Afghan man until two patrol commanders ordered him to stop; then, in 2012, Roberts-Smith assaulted a second unarmed Afghan man and authorised the assault of a third unarmed Afghan man who was being held in custody and did not pose a threat.[[54]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-Wootton-54) Besanko also found that allegations of Roberts-Smith engaging in a “campaign of bullying” and threatening violence against an Australian soldier had been proven.[[11]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-committedwar-11)[[54]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-Wootton-54) Meanwhile, it was ruled that allegations that Roberts-Smith committed domestic violence and threatened to report another soldier to the International Criminal Court had not been proven, but did not further harm Roberts-Smith’s reputation given the other substantially true allegations, thus establishing contextual truth.[[50]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith#cite_note-Visontay-50) I really hope a new CRIMINAL inquiry is opened to pursue Roberts-Smith. He sounds like an extraordinarily arrogant and evil person. I further hope he is stripped of his VC (the highest decoration of valour awarded to British subjects). I hope the bastard gets righteously done over. Apparently he didn’t even show to the court on Thursday when the judgement was handed down, instead was spotted languishing next to a pool in Bali! The judge was not amused. [Wiki page for Ben Roberts-Smith.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roberts-Smith) ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/2 "2023-06-05T03:40:02Z")
If you hadn’t posted this thread, I would have had no idea. Thank you for shining light on this. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/3 "2023-06-05T03:49:01Z")
Its certainly a _big thing_ here in Aus at the moment. Just finished watching a doco on youtube speaking to two of the journos, Nick McKenzie and Chris Masters about their investigation and subsequent victory in the court last Thursday. It’s just been fascinating to follow the story especially to watch the big bloke (he stands at 2.02 metres, a menacingly tall fella) get cut down to size. I truly believe (and hope) that the recent verdict forces the hand of the ADF (Aus Defence Forces) to reopen a full investigation. And I’m feeling very schadenfreudy that Roberts-Smith has to pay the court costs for all of the defendants from last week! 🤣 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/4 "2023-06-05T04:11:04Z")
I have to ask, how do you use a prosthetic leg to machine gun someone? Yeah, I know, bad taste joke given the subject matter, but someone had to do it. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/5 "2023-06-05T04:16:17Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I have to ask, how do you use a prosthetic leg to machine gun someone? > > Yeah, I know, bad taste joke given the subject matter, but someone had to do it. - [![](https://i0.wp.com/boingboing.net/images/xeni/cherry_58e1.jpg?w=970) ](https://i0.wp.com/boingboing.net/images/xeni/cherry_58e1.jpg?w=970) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/6 "2023-06-05T04:20:49Z")
But more seriously, it’s been interesting reading various commentaries, and comment threads on social media etc about this. Perhaps predictably there seem to be essentially two camps. There’s the Colonel Jessup “you can’t handle the truth” attitude ie that we shouldn’t question the indiscretions such as _cough_ murder _cough_ by the men who stand on the walls; this stuff has always happened, get used to it snowflakes, approach. There’s the “we went to Afghanistan supposedly to fight for freedom and justice etc, and we needed to win the hearts and minds of the locals, and besides which, yanno, murder. The last thing we need is murderous psychopaths using the place as their sick personal playground.” I know which camp I’m in. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/7 "2023-06-05T04:22:57Z")
You really know how to make me sorry I made that joke, do you know that? 🤨 My fault, I shouldn’t have started it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/8 "2023-06-05T04:39:23Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > I further hope he is stripped of his VC (the highest decoration of valour awarded to British subjects). I hope the bastard gets righteously done over. I wonder if any military ever follows the trope where the disgraced soldier stands at attention while someone tears the insignia off his uniform, breaks his sword, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/9 "2023-06-05T04:46:18Z")
Whenever I see that trope I always think that sewing is pretty strong - and can imagine a comedy scene where the superior officer tugs at the insignia impotently while totally failing to be able to tear it off. Or maybe if this is an actual ceremony IRL, they snip through most of the threads beforehand, to make sure it tears off easily at the required moment. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/10 "2023-06-05T04:56:33Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Whenever I see that trope I always think that sewing is pretty strong - and can imagine a comedy scene where the superior officer tugs at the insignia impotently while totally failing to be able to tear it off. I think Carol Burnett did that; probably Tim Conway and Harvey Korman. Can’t find a video of it, though. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/11 "2023-06-05T05:11:35Z")
Nitpick - he’s an Australian citizen, not a British subject (which itself is a term dropped in the UK sone decades ago), and [his VC was from Australia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Cross_for_Australia), not the UK (though heaven knows we have nasty secrets enough emerging from Iraq and Afghanistan, not to mention attempts to make sure they stay under the carpet). ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/12 "2023-06-05T05:17:30Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > Or maybe if this is an actual ceremony IRL, they snip through most of the threads beforehand, to make sure it tears off easily at the required moment. It’s called cashiering, and it certainly is a thing militaries _used to do_, but I’m not sure if any still do. Most infamously, it was done to the wrongfully convicted French artillery officer Alfred Dreyfus, as [depicted here](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Degradation_alfred_dreyfus.jpg/528px-Degradation_alfred_dreyfus.jpg) by an essentially contemporary source, later [dramatized here](https://youtube.com/watch?v=0ty_M9muolk), and somewhere along the way [parodied here](https://youtube.com/watch?v=qm0hSAgFhZo&t=111). Anyway, to your question, as I understand it Dreyfus’s uniform was indeed specially prepared to just be barely held together in key areas, to be easier to tear, and his sword was filed down almost all the way in the middle so it would break on the knee with minimal effort. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/13 "2023-06-05T05:24:02Z")
I should also note the previous US President actually pardoned a number of war criminals from our campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, so we’ve got that to live down on our end. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/14 "2023-06-05T06:02:28Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > …and his sword was filed down almost all the way in the middle so it would break on the knee with minimal effort. Probably a good idea. [https://www.madmagazine.com/sites/default/files/imce/2014/09-SEP/Don-Martin\_Civil-War\_5421cab7cd3fb5.80058787.jpg](https://www.madmagazine.com/sites/default/files/imce/2014/09-SEP/Don-Martin_Civil-War_5421cab7cd3fb5.80058787.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/15 "2023-06-05T14:22:35Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > And I’m feeling very schadenfreudy that Roberts-Smith has to pay the court costs for all of the defendants from last week! 🤣 🤣 Actually Kerry Stokes funded this debacle and is up for the $25 million plus that it will cost. You think Stokes would have learned his lesson when he lost the [C7 case in 2007](https://www.theage.com.au/business/seven-ordered-to-pay-c7-costs-20070917-ge5uco.html) with estimated costs of $200 million. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/16 "2023-06-05T20:02:10Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I think Carol Burnett did that; probably Tim Conway and Harvey Korman. Can’t find a video of it, though. Here it is. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip0BIe\_nE\_4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip0BIe_nE_4) ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/17 "2023-06-05T20:30:01Z")
Somewhat similarly to the recent Trump verdict (not sidetracking, don’t want to discuss that here!) a civil verdict like this says that pretty a horrible injustice has occurred. Either: A: Someone committed a terrible crime and has got away with it other than (comparatively) minor inconvenience of losing a civil case, as in they remain free and unpunished other than being a little bit poorer. This is the most likely explanation (in both cases) B: Due to the lower standard of proof someone has lost a civil case despite being innocent of the crime they are accused off. There is no option C, either A is true or B is true, so we know an injustice of some kind has occurred. It seems like it should be mandatory for the police to re-open the investigation in cases like this. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/18 "2023-06-05T21:04:48Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > I really hope a new CRIMINAL inquiry is opened to pursue Roberts-Smith. He sounds like an extraordinarily arrogant and evil person. I further hope he is stripped of his VC Theoretically possible but unlikely. They haven’t done that since 1920, at the request of King George V. > **[The Victoria Cross - 12 Things You Might Not Know About Britain’s Highest...](https://militaryhistorynow.com/2019/08/17/the-victoria-cross-12-things-you-might-not-know-about-britains-highest-decoration-for-valour/)** > > “The VC has had an eventful history, with many a bump in the road. Here are some parts of the story that might surprise you.” By Granville Allen Mawer IN 1929, while attending a reunion... _Indeed, when the question was put to [King George V](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_V) he reportedly declared that even if a winner were being hanged for murder he should still be permitted to wear the decoration on the gallows if he so chose._ ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/19 "2023-06-05T22:08:03Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > > [@kambuckta](#): > > > > I really hope a new CRIMINAL inquiry is opened to pursue Roberts-Smith. He sounds like an extraordinarily arrogant and evil person. I further hope he is stripped of his VC > > Theoretically possible but unlikely. They haven’t done that since 1920, at the request of King George V. > > [The Victoria Cross - 12 Things You Might Not Know About Britain’s Highest Decoration for Valour - MilitaryHistoryNow.com](https://militaryhistorynow.com/2019/08/17/the-victoria-cross-12-things-you-might-not-know-about-britains-highest-decoration-for-valour/) > > _Indeed, when the question was put to [King George V](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_V) he reportedly declared that even if a winner were being hanged for murder he should still be permitted to wear the decoration on the gallows if he so chose._ Do you mean they won’t open an enquiry, or (if found guilty in a criminal or ADF court) he won’t be stripped of his medal? Because a) if they DO hold an enquiry and b) if he is found guilty, then c) not taking back his VC would really damage the ADF’s reputation, and the prestige of the VC would be decimated. IMHO of course. And I feel, given the massive attention this case has raised, then either the criminal justice system or the ADF really have to reopen an enquiry into BRS in particular. To not do so would blight the entire defence forces integrity. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2023, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010/20 "2023-06-05T22:36:17Z")
Seems to me that a further inquiry into his actions and record would be the least they could do. ISTM King George was adopting a position that a VC is for the _deed_, of conspicuous extreme valour or devotion and that even the vilest criminal could perform and take pride in such deeds. But he may have been thinking of someone being hanged for a “common” crime — war criminals are a category distinct from your common street criminal. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vc-recipient-found-to-have-committed-war-crimes-ben-roberts-smith/985010.md?page=2)