# Vegan debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2000, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917 "2000-09-28T19:48:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2000, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/21 "2000-10-01T19:05:06Z")
People can eat whatever they want to. You wanna eat spinach as your main source of dietary needs? Be my guest. You don’t care if I eat animal muscle? Good for you. I’m glad you have that attitude, yosemitebabe, because I feel the same way. The one thing I do have a problem with is your response to my argument. If you want to ignore the situation, then there’s nothing more to say. But to tell me that you’ve heard them before does not, in any way, come close to responding to the argument. Imagine a presidential debate where this happens. “Mr. Bush, now that RU486 has been approved for use in the US, what do you think the long term effects will be on the population?” Bush: “My God…are we still talking about Abortion? That’s been done to death already. Can you give me an origial question please?” “Mr. Gore, teen violence has risen in recent years due to lack of gun regulations, what will you do to stop this?” Gore: “Wow, teen violence? Again? That’s so cliche. I was being asked that ten years ago!” To all vegitarians out there: I don’t care what you eat. I hope you don’t care what I eat. Whatever your reasons for eating the way you do, they’re your reasons and I’ll let you have them. All I’m saying is that if you don’t eat meat because killing is wrong, understand that plants are being killed too. And the number of times you’ve heard that argument does not change the underlying truth behind the words. ---
**Author:** ![Nurlman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Nurlman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nurlman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2000, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/22 "2000-10-01T19:35:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tristan \* > _To say that humans should eat meat because wolves eat meat rejects the profound difference between man and wolf._ > **If you can tell me the difference, and have it be more than a “Well, we know it’s _wrong_” defense I would love to hear it. Some other day we’ll debate what’s right and wrong, but not here…** You’re kidding, right? Let’s just take a couple of simple differences for purposes of this discussion: - Wolves cannot appreciate the concept of suffering and death. They do not contemplate the fact that their eating causes another creature’s demise. - Wolves do not comprehend the variety of dietary options they have. As others have pointed out here, canines can live comfortably on a vegetarian diet. However, wolves are not biolgically programmed to consider this possibility. Humans are. > [@](#): > > **The greatere problem I have with so many of these sorts of viewpoints is a rejection of humanity as part of nature. What is the difference between a beaver dam and grand coulee, other than scale? An ant hive or Bee hive or termite log (all of which change the immediate environment) and the suburbs of Sacramento, or the highrises of L.A. and NYC?** Who said anything about rejecting nature? Every creature changes its enviornment. My point was, as conscious creatures, we have an ethical obligation to attempt to limit the impact that our modifications to our environment have on other creatures. A beaver cannot contemplate that building a dam may have effects on other living things in its environment. We do, and the gift of that ability to comprehend comes with the corresponding obligation to use that knowledge ethically. > [@](#): > > **There are no ethics to any of this, and the fallacy of “rights” shouldn’t even enter into it. Ethical duty is a subject for another debate, but I will state that it is my belief that there can be no “ethical duty” as ethics are on an individual basis, and to try to force a conforming to an ethic that isn’t mine, will make me resist… violently if necessary.** Maintaining that all ethics are matters of individual choice effectively forecloses any debate on the issue, since all you have to do is turn your back and say “that’s not what I believe in.” It’s also intellectually dishonest, since unless you’re some sort of sociopath, you adhere to some common set of ethics as the rest of humanity. Moreover, the point of this thread was **weirddave** asking vegetarians to explain their belief in an ethical basis for choosing vegetarian diet. If you truly believe that all ethics are a matter of individual choice, then you should accept the statement I have made regarding the ethics **I** have and resist the temptation to debate whether mine are correct or not. Thanks for playing, I’m sure Vanna has some lovely parting gifts for you. **Enderw23** wrote: > [@](#): > > \*\*Nurlman, I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t like your argument. The Matrix was about AI’s who knew full well that humans could survive on their own, which is precisely why they created The Matrix in the first place. But domesticated animals can’t survive on their own. \*\* The difference between eating domesticated cows killed in a slaughterhouse and wild deer killed by hunting is ethically meaningless. Are you willing to say that it’s ethical to only eat wild animals because they’re subject to predators? Or that it’s ethical to eat only domesticated animals because they couldn’t survive on their own? My point was that arguing for meat eating on the basis that lower animals eat meat improperly equates humans and lower animals. If anything, my example of _The Matrix_ is more appropriate than **weirddave** ’s analogy to lower predators like wolves, since, like humans, the AI in _The Matrix_ can be said to have the ability to reason and understand the consequences of its actions while wolves do not. ---
**Author:** ![Spider\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Spider\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spider_Woman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2000, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/23 "2000-10-01T19:50:22Z")
Enderw23, I posted right after you originally asked the question about plants, saying that I don’t worry about them too much because they are not sentient. They live as a mass of cells lives, but they do not (as far as anyone knows) have a consciousness, or a desire to prevent their own death. Did you miss that, or do you disagree with it? I have only heard people use this arguement when they are trying to harass vegetarians (it has been used against me). The particular person who brought this up was eating with me, and I chose not to eat the dishes which contained meat. When he asked me why, and I told him, he launched into this whole plant diatribe. I had not asked him about what he was eating, and I did not try to tell him he should eat the way I eat, and I still was harassed. If you think eating plants is akin to killing a sentient being, then by all means, don’t eat them. But why continue about the plant thing to others who don’t feel that same way? ---
**Author:** ![Nurlman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Nurlman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nurlman)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2000, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/24 "2000-10-01T19:51:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw23 \*\*\* > To all vegitarians out there: I don’t care what you eat. I hope you don’t care what I eat. Whatever your reasons for eating the way you do, they’re your reasons and I’ll let you have them. All I’m saying is that if you don’t eat meat because killing is wrong, understand that plants are being killed too. \*\* Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it fair to say that all animals, incluing humans, only survive by eating organic material? Unlike plants, we can’t photosynthesize, and rocks and dirt just don’t make for a nice nutritious snack. Since we have to eat organic material to survive, we necessarily have to make value judgments among the various things available to eat. Plants may have feelings or intelligence or other traits of animals, but to all appearances, they are less complex and advanced creatures than any of the other options, and the extent to which they suffer is far less evident to us. So we elect to eat those, and nothing else. But I agree with **yosemitiebabe**. I won’t attempt to dissuade you from eating what you want to eat if you don’t try to dissuade me from eating what I want to eat. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/25 "2000-10-02T00:49:08Z")
Thanks Spider Woman and Nurlman, you clarified the plant thing far better than I could have! The only thing I’d like to add is that some veggies consider vegetarianism less wasteful of plant life. Animals bred for meat have to be fed lots and lots of _plants_ throughout their lifetime. A lot of plants go into one pound of meat (so to speak) this way. If there was no need for that meat animal, it may never have been born, it would never have been fed all those plants. By just eating the plants, and not eating meat, a vegetarian is actually _saving_ lots of plants. I also want to reiterate to Enderw23: The “plants have feelings too” argument is as old as dirt. The argument doesn’t hold up real well, either. (As I think Nurlman and Spider Woman have suffiently explained.) It is primarily used (in my experience) by non-vegetarians to be irritants to vegetarians. The scenario that Spider Woman describes is _very_ typical. It is so _bloody_ typical that I started that thread ranting about it, and many other old, tired lines vegetarians are subjected to, when they are minding their own business. Non-vegetarians alwasy seem to think they are the first _geniuses_ to come up with these lines too. :rolleyes: Can you blame us for getting a little impatient with it after a while? Did you read that thread? I politely directed the link to you twice, because I think it might further clarify what many vegetarians’ experiences have been. I don’t want to seem terribly curt (but yeah, I can be on this issue) but we’ve gone down this road a _million frickin’ times._ I’d also like to respond to your analogy of the presidential debate: _VEGETARIANS ARE NOT RUNNING FOR OFFICE._ We are (for the most part) _minding our own business._ We are NOT aggressively trying to cause you to change your diet. Some of us are gracious enough to answer questions about why we have chosen our diet, _when asked._ That is what has happened on this thread. Someone asked, others answered. I am aware that some vegetarians can be annoying and “in your face”, but I see none of them here on this thread. (But, as I said on that other thread - if someone is “in your face” first, feel free to annoy them right back. They started it.) **IF** we think the way you eat is incorrect, we have that right, as long as we keep it to ourselves. As I mentioned before, as long as we are not commenting on what you eat, why is there any need for a “debate”? Are we not entitled to eat what we want, decide that certain things are wrong to eat, for ANY reason? ---
**Author:** ![Spider\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Spider\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spider_Woman)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/26 "2000-10-02T01:20:50Z")
As discussed in your “gentle rant thread,” it does get tiresome when people get in your face about the same old stuff. I have never insisted to anyone that they should be vegetarian, but many people have tried to tell me why I should eat meat. I had my own gentle rant at [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=37489&pagenumber=5) thread (near the bottom of the page). [hijack] Any other aspiring limerical ranters about any ole thing, step right up![/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/27 "2000-10-02T14:44:06Z")
There once was a man from nantucket Who ate all his meat from a bucket But he can’t pile high Four ribs and a thigh So he said to the butcher “ground chuck it!” ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/28 "2000-10-02T15:45:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Enderw23 \* > \*\*There once was a man from nantucket > Who ate all his meat from a bucket > But he can’t pile high > Four ribs and a thigh > So he said to the butcher “ground chuck it!” \*\* Cute! Very sporting of you. However, maybe it’s the cynical part of me, but I hope this is not an example of #5 on my “gentle rant” thread (link provided above.) You know, “ **#5. Please stop waving meat in my face, or telling me all about the tasty meat dish you want to eat.** ” It didn’t occur to me right away that this was what you were trying to do. So I probably am being terribly cynical in even bringing it up. But, _just in case_ you thought you’d “tweak” us veggies by mentioning (horrors) meat, read the “gentle rant” thread more carefully. We are not offended by such tactics, just wearied by them. (But, I really can’t imagine you’d do something that lame, so never mind!) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/29 "2000-10-02T16:07:25Z")
Nah, I heard limerick and, since we were talking about meat I figured I’d make one up. This one came to me in about 30 seconds so I thought I’d post it. It wasn’t a subliminal message to get you to crave flesh. Besides, if a five line poem will cause you to rethink your entire stance on vegitarianism, I think I’d lose all respect for you. Anywho, to even things out: There once was a woman with a radish She placed it on her next to lettuce I ate left to right and she moaned in delight Man, you know that I loved her plant fetish OK, so it doesn’t exactly rhyme… ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/30 "2000-10-02T16:11:06Z")
Very cute! You have a gift for this! And glad to hear that you were not violating “#5” on my list! I would have considered you very lame if you had tried that. But I kind of suspected that it wasn’t the case! ---
**Author:** ![Tretiak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Tretiak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tretiak)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/31 "2000-10-02T16:18:18Z")
Instead of asking why vegans eat what they do I will explain why I feel ok eating meat (and not just by saying “Tastes good!”). I don’t have a high regard for animals. I do not place them on a scale with humans. I am able, in my mind, to make a pretty clean break between the two. An animal never created “Ode to Joy” or “Round Midnight”. An horse didn’t paint the Mona Lisa. A dog never wrote Hamlet. I realize that to some this will sound ludicrous, but there are seeds of it in this thread from vegetarinas themselves. Animals are unable to make conscious lifestyle choices was one argument, animals are not sentient, animals are unable to discern the consequences of their actions and that those actions may lead to the detath of another creature. These are arguments given as to why vegetarians can make the personal choice to be vegetarians although nature is decidedly not that way. But, and this is brutally honest, this is precisely why I have little concern that a cow has to die for me to eat a steak. I am not being flippant. Animals are much closer to automatons than humans. In many way (although this is obviously not a direct corollary) a cow to me is as disposable as a VCR. This does not mean I think an animal should suffer needlessly. I do not condone animal torture or other acts of cruelty. Undeniably they suffer pain when tortured, beaten, etc. a contradiction? Some of you may think so and I know I won’t change your mind, but those are just my thoughts. ---
**Author:** ![Spider\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Spider\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spider_Woman)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/32 "2000-10-02T19:15:52Z")
There are a couple of different shades of meaning for sentient: one basically means conscious and the other means able to perceive by the senses. Plants have some very limited senses (example: phototropic plants like sunflowers that follow the direction of the sun). Animals, while not self-reflective in nature, can experience pain and terror. I became vegetarian after my daughter took a class in high school that told about the treatment of animals in factory farms and slaughterhouses. I did not choose this diet because I think it is necessarily natural to humans; and I don’t criticize people who make a different choice. We converge on opinions where you say you don’t think an animal should suffer needlessly. The difference, as I see it, between our opinions, is rooted in how we emotionally view animals. I think there may be some vegetarians who think those people who eat meat are morally wrong. I am not one of those people, and I see your choice as being logical to your feelings and beliefs. [Those who have shown their limerick prowess would be more than welcome [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=40629).] ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2000, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917/33 "2000-10-02T21:32:21Z")
Tretiak wrote: > [@](#): > > Instead of asking why vegans eat what they do I will explain why I feel ok eating meat (and not just by saying “Tastes good!”). You do _wait_ until you are _asked_ by someone, right? You just don’t start up with how cows are this or that, when no one cared to ask…right? Just because you encounter a vegetarian, it doesn’t mean they _care_ to hear why you eat meat. (I should have put that on my “rant” list. So many times the mere mention of me being a vegetarian prompts someone to explain “Well, I will eat this” or “I think it’s OK to eat that”.) _ **I DIDN’T ASK!!!** _ I mean, that would be the equivalent of me going up to you and explaining in exhaustive detail why I chose the color of socks I am now wearing. Why should I assume anyone cares? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegan-debate/34917.md?page=1)