# Veganinanitarianism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 20, 2001, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419 "2001-06-20T02:40:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/361 "2001-06-30T11:36:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > \*\*You didn’t get enough intellectual masturbation in the positively comical “Liberals are more intelligent” GD thread (that you, like clockwork, contributed to)? Like clockwork? 1) I posted for the first time in that thread halfway through page 2. Hardly clockwork, moron. 2) Are you still under the misimpression that I am a liberal? Haven’t I identified myself as a libertarian, like, a thousand times? If so, looks like my criticism of your reading skills is right on target. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/362 "2001-06-30T11:39:50Z")
Actually, I want to raise that challenge for jab1 to $100 bucks if he can find a post wherein I said, “There is no fundamental difference between me and a bull.” And there are enough SDers here who know me in person to hold me to it. $100 is yours for the taking, jab. ---
**Author:** ![Spider\_Woman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Spider\_Woman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spider_Woman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/363 "2001-06-30T12:43:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*This is no longeer humorous, a rant, or a debate. It’s a pissing contest, and it’s bevoming genuinely nasty. I see no constructive outcome. > > I wonder if a Moderator would be willing to shut this thing down. \*\* I second the motion. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/364 "2001-06-30T13:29:43Z")
Regrettably, I think the profundity and steadfastly reasonable, non-shrill nature that the thread has held since the beginning, has faded. Ah well. There shall be others. Also, I think **pld** and **jab1** make a really cute couple. The way they’re going at each other, tireless, energetic, sweaty…you can just feel the palpable sexual tension underlying it. Life is so short and precious, when oh when will they stop fighting their own hearts? Peace and love to all of creation’s edible bits. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/365 "2001-06-30T13:48:11Z")
I’m not sure I do. **Spiritus** has made some fine points that I’d like to see **Scylla** respond to. And I still haven’t seen **Scylla’s** response to the point raised surrounding the issue that one with **pld’s** philosophy would simply be repulsed by the concept of eating meat. (Incidentally **Scylla** - if you do respond to that, please respond to the original thought-out point in the post it came up, rather than my precis of it here. Thanks.) I’m looking for **Scylla** to _understand_ that some people’s philosophies have not eating meat as a natural and internally consistent consequence. Just because their ethics don’t tie in with his, _doesn’t mean they are a “flake” or stupid_. You see - I see **Scylla’s** lack of understanding of this as ignorance. I used to be an angry meat eater. I used to assault vegetarians for their reasons and argue vociferously. I used to be, in a word, obnoxious about it. But one day I simply realised that the main reason I was so willing to jump in and fight was because I was worried that on this matter a vegetarian might be ethically superior to me. At this point, the situation crystallized. I realised two things:[list=1][li]I have a different ethical system to pretty much anyone else. We all do. Others can see things as more important that I do and _neither_ of us are necessarily wrong. God is dead - there is no moral absolute.[/li] [li]Maybe, even by my _own_ ethical system, vegetarians are on this issue “better” than me. So what? Rather than get aggresive about it, I’d rather congratulate them. We can’t be perfect at everything.[/list=1]Either way, I realised, they win.[/li] **jab** - how _dare_ you tell _anyone_ that they are stupid for thinking that animals are as important as people! Until you declare yourself divine and the arbitrator of what is appropriate ethics and what isn’t, you can bloody well keep your opinions in the realm of _opinion_. I don’t think that animals are as important as people. Who am I, however, to **declare that as an immutable ethical law of the universe**? Good god - to think that before all this I thought you might be _intelligent_! ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/366 "2001-06-30T18:46:07Z")
Thank you kabbes, for bringing up some excellent points. One thing I want to comment to: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kabbes \* > God is dead - there is no moral absolute. Well, as stated before, I’m religious, so I don’t believe God is dead. However, along with many other things, He hasn’t given an Absolute to _me_ on this issue. So, I just consider it one of those things that’s up to your personal moral ethics, preferences, and/or tastes. Neither position is _evil_, just different depending on your sensibility, temperament, upbringing, etc. Needless to say, it doesn’t follow that I think everyone _ought_ to be in lock-step with my specific beliefs, or anyone else’s specific beliefs. I’m just taking the path I think is best for _me_, and I expect everyone else to do the same. I won’t pester them, and I hope they don’t pester me. (Well, actually, I _expect_ that they won’t pester me, since I am taking pains to not pester them.) We all have to do the best we can, in our own way. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/367 "2001-06-30T18:48:33Z")
Kabbes: I appreciate your concern for my spiritual welfare. I’ve addressed all the points you’ve mentioned more than once in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/368 "2001-06-30T18:58:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > Anyway, you asked why I’m a vegetarian. Part of the answer deals with the scope of my vegetarianism. **I don’t eat any animal flesh – no beef, no veal, no pork, no poultry, no fish.** I do eat dairy. I’ll eat eggs from free-range chickens only, and I pay extra for them. I will not eat cheese cultured with rennet if I can avoid it. I do not wear leather at all. > > Why? Well, because I decided that, based upon the widespread horrific practices in the factory-farming industry, which produces the lion’s share of the meat consumed in this country, **I would do everything in my power not to contribute unnecessarily to the suffering of sentient beings.** Sentient in my judgement, anyway. **I subscribe, at least in part, to Peter Singer’s maxim that the difference between humans and nonhuman animals is not a significant enough difference to justify causing them unnecessary suffering. And factory farming, in my opinion, is unnecessary suffering.** You won’t eat beef because you do not want to contribute unnecessarily to the suffering of sentient animals; you think cattle are sentient; you agree with Peter Singer (Who the fuck is that?) that the difference between humans and nonhuman animals is not significant. If this does not mean that you see no difference between yourself and a bull, then just what DOES it mean? I want my $100. I also want an apology for that hideous, totally unwarranted scenario where you wished death for my family JUST so I might learn a lesson. And I want it in the very next post you make on this thread. > [@](#): > > **That’s it. It’s that simple. If I was so inclined as to kill an animal myself, swiftly and humanely, I’d eat it.** Okay, this part I missed the first time around. You did say that. > [@](#): > > **I’m certainly not stupid enough to think that complicated issues like research allocation can be subjected to reductionist answers like “stop eating meat,” although it is fairly evident that the resources involved in raising, feeding, transporting and slaughtering animals somewhat exceeds those used for produce.** So? Different jobs require differnt tools and resources to accomplish. The fact that meat is not inherently unhealthy for human consumptions justifies the resources used to raise meat animals. > [@](#): > > **Also, that a given acre can yield more nutrients for human consumption from plant matter than it can from animals.** So? We have an awful lot of land out there not being used. I used to think there was no land left, but not anymore. Also, we are learning how to raise more crops per acre than ever before. (Biotechnology is a GOOD thing.) > [@](#): > > **Anyway, that’s my answer. Ask another vegetarian, and you’ll get different answers with different restrictions, some smarter, some dumber.** But why should anyone accept the dumb answers? Good grief, **yosemitebabe** said, “I don’t care if their reasons are because their parrot told them not to eat meat.” Oh, yeah, THAT’S a good reason not to eat meat. I suppose if their parrot told them to stop drinking water and start drinking their own urine, you’d be fine with that too. If your reasons for doing something are stupid, chances are it’s a stupid thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/369 "2001-06-30T19:18:14Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > [@](#): > > “I don’t care if their reasons are because their parrot told them not to eat meat.” Oh, yeah, THAT’S a good reason not to eat meat. It may not be a good reason, but it’s **NONE OF YOUR FRICKIN’ BUSINESS**. READ THE ENTIRETY OF MY POST, PLEASE TRY TO QUOTE IT IN CONTEXT. THANK YOU. If someone is doing something that is not harming them (certainly NOT eating meat is not harmful - it usually is considered healthy) it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS about the _why_. So, they have a silly reason to eat healthy. Is this the same as eating feces? As jumping off a cliff? No. Let it go. None of your business. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/370 "2001-06-30T19:23:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by pldennison I subscribe, at least in part, to Peter Singer’s maxim that the difference between humans and nonhuman animals is not a significant enough difference to justify causing them unnecessary suffering. And factory farming, in my opinion, is unnecessary suffering._ > > You won’t eat beef because you do not want to contribute unnecessarily to the suffering of sentient animals; you think cattle are sentient; you agree with Peter Singer (Who the fuck is that?) that the difference between humans and nonhuman animals is not significant. If this does not mean that you see no difference between yourself and a bull, then just what DOES it mean? > > I want my $100.\*\* I’ll leave it up to the readers of this thread to determine if what I said above comes close enough to “There is no difference between me and a bull.” Personally, I think anyone who can freaking **read** can see it doesn’t, but if you or I gets to judge, then the outcome is obvious. If the preponderance of readers think it does, e-mail me at [pldennison@yahoo.com](mailto:pldennison@yahoo.com) and tell me where to send the check. > [@](#): > > I also want an apology for that hideous, totally unwarranted scenario where you wished death for my family JUST so I might learn a lesson. And I want it in the very next post you make on this thread. And people in hell want ice water. I want an admission from you that you are deliberately not reading people’s posts, and rather disagreeing with them out of personal dislike and attributing to them positions they do not hold because it’s convenient to do so. And I can hold my breath as long as you can. Absent that, go ahead and take it to the mods. > [@](#): > > But why should anyone accept the dumb answers? Why should anyone accept **your** dumb answers? Oh, that’s right–you’re so far beyond the rest of us that you never give any. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/371 "2001-06-30T19:28:37Z")
Huh. Well, I may not 100% remember every detail of the wager, (I’m in a rush out the door right now.) But if it is about the man and bull thing… > [@](#): > > I would do everything in my power not to contribute unnecessarily to the suffering of sentient beings. Sentient in my judgement, anyway. I subscribe, at least in part, to Peter Singer’s maxim that the difference between humans and nonhuman animals is not a significant enough difference to justify causing them unnecessary suffering. Saying something is “not significant enough to _justify causing unnecessary suffering_” is **NOT** the same as saying there is no “fundamental difference” between a man and a bull, as a whole. Note the “to justify causing unnecessary suffering” part. That doesn’t mean he thinks we are exactly like bulls, just **when it comes to suffering** , there isn’t that much of a difference in _how we experience suffering._ ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/372 "2001-06-30T19:29:53Z")
If I had a parrot that was smart enough to tell me to stop eating meat I would listen:) Hey jab, didn’t you once complain that christans should not bother atheists? Well they think your atheism is dangerous ignorance and you should listen because they are only trying to help dispell a little ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/373 "2001-06-30T19:42:55Z")
**scylla** > [@](#): > > I’ve addressed all the points [kabbes] mentioned more than once in this thread. Are you sure? Perhaps your posts have become invisible, too. **pldennison** > [@](#): > > I’ll leave it up to the readers of this thread to determine if what I said above comes close enough to “There is no difference between me and a bull.” It wasn’t. **Jab1** , you seem to have confused “fundamental difference” with “difference significant enough to justify causing unnecessary suffering”. There are fundamental differences between men and women. Those differences do not justify spousal abuse. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/374 "2001-06-30T20:00:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > **I want an admission from you that you are deliberately not reading people’s posts, and rather disagreeing with them out of personal dislike and attributing to them positions they do not hold because it’s convenient to do so.** You ain’t getting it because it ain’t the truth. Mondays through Fridays I have an enormous problem reading long threads when the board is so damn slow. It’s also because I post from the library; the library limits everyone to only one hour at a time. (And they are about to limit everyone to just two hours PER DAY!) That means that once an hour, I must type in the URL and sometimes wait as long as twenty minutes \*just to open a damn thread!!! I read for forty minutes and then I have to logoff, go to another floor _and start the whole damn process all over again!_ It’s been that way since the day I started and it doesn’t look like it’s ever gonna change. I’m on Social Security and SSI. I am disabled by more than one mental disorder whcih keeps me from working. (Chronic depression, PTSD and mild autism. They are interelated. My autism causes me to overreact to crises and traumas, which makes even mild events traumatic for me and that causes my chronic depression.) I have to live on just $800 a month and my rent costs HALF OF THAT! ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/375 "2001-06-30T20:37:25Z")
To continue, I must either read as fast as I can (which, of course, affects my retention) or not read long threads at all. If it means I am missing important details, then I guess I should not read so fast anymore. BTW, **pld** , I HAVE told you in the past that I suffer from chronic depression, so don’t you say you don’t remember. (BTW, I have yet to confirm my suspicions that I also have PTSD and mild autism. I should not have given the impression that they are. But I sure seem to have most of the symptoms of both.) This series of posts is exactly what I was talking about: I could not finish my previous post before my time was up at 1:00 PM PDT. Since the library forbids people from putting their own disks into their computers, I can save a post only one way: By posting it, errors and all, complete or not. I didn’t have time to preview. Also, I am NOT stupid. Back in 1981, when it became clear I had some kind of mental disorder, I saw a VA psychiatrist (I was in the Navy from 1976 to '79). He gave me a standard IQ test and I scored 127. I am NOT stupid. So to hell with anyone who says I am. A person can have a high IQ and be autistic. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Spiritus Mundi_ > Jab1, you seem to have confused “fundamental difference” with “difference significant enough to justify causing unnecessary suffering”. You may be right. But I’ll be damned if I see the difference. It looks to me like the difference is only semantics. OTOH, autistics often have language problems. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/376 "2001-06-30T21:01:57Z")
Spiritus: Yeah, I saw your post, but the proven risk is so vanishingly small it’s really a de minimus kind of thing. Besides, assuming a risk for beef, why would that stop one from chicken, fish, pork, mutton, etc? Why be a vegetarian because of one product at risk? And what about the chemical risk of veggies? Wouldn’t you need to show that that was less than that of beef? ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2001, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/377 "2001-06-30T23:10:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Yeah, I saw your post, but the proven risk is so vanishingly small it’s really a de minimus kind of thing. I have made more than one, you appear to be responding to the first, but you have not addressed the point. However minimal the proven risk, it is insufficient in itself to declare any response unreasonable. Are you unclear on that, or do you disagree? > [@](#): > > Besides, assuming a risk for beef, why would that stop one from chicken, fish, pork, mutton, etc? Which someone are we talking about, here. If you have a particular strawman in mind, set him up and I’ll huff and puff at him. Whether a random vegetarian has assessed the risk of any particular food group as significant enough to avoid is not something I feel qualified to speculate upon. Even if I did decide to do so, without knowing the cost that person associated with avoidance of that food it would be outrageousy presumtuous for me to declare his decisions irrational. > [@](#): > > Why be a vegetarian because of one product at risk? I don’t know anyone who avoids all meats because they are worried about additives/treatments/hormones/etc in beef. If you think you do, then perhaps you should ask them. They may have other reasons for avoiding other foods. > [@](#): > > And what about the chemical risk of veggies? Wouldn’t you need to show that that was less than that of beef? No. This again shows that you are focused on risk as if it occurred in a vaccuum. That _ **is** _ an irrational method for determining actions. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/378 "2001-07-01T00:50:32Z")
Spiritus: > [@](#): > > I don’t know anyone who avoids all meats because they are worried about additives/treatments/hormones/etc in beef. If you think you do, > then perhaps you should ask them. Well, that’s what Kabbes is arguing. He uses the example of Mad cow, and the “chemical cocktails” cows are injected with, and says that this is in itself sufficient reason to “opt out” and become a vegetarian from a reasoned standpoint. I think that’s horse pucky. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/379 "2001-07-01T03:05:23Z")
**Spiritus Mundi** wrote: > [@](#): > > However minimal the proven risk, it is insufficient in itself to declare any response unreasonable. **Spiritus** , are you cribbing Paschal? Paschal’s Wager: > [@](#): > > EITHER God exists or he doesn’t. > Which alternative will you wager on? > You can’t avoid choosing one or the other; you have embarked on the wager already. > A refusal to choose carries the same result as choosing that God does not exist. > What if you choose to bet that God exists? > If you win, you win everything; if you lose, you lose nothing. > Make a bet that God exists. **Spiritus** ’s wager: > [@](#): > > EITHER meat is unsafe or it isn’t. > Which alternative will you wager on? > You can’t avoid choosing one or the other; you have embarked on the wager already. > A refusal to choose carries the same result as choosing that meat is safe. > What if you choose to bet that meat is unsafe? > If you win, you win everything; if you lose, you lose nothing. > Make a bet that meat is unsafe. (And yes **Spiritus** , I recognize that you are a meat-eater, but it seems that you are creating/legitimizing a sort of Paschal’s wager for vegetarians.) ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/380 "2001-07-01T04:40:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\*Huh. Well, I may not 100% remember every detail of the wager, (I’m in a rush out the door right now.) But if it is about the man and bull thing… > > > [@](#): > > > > I would do everything in my power not to contribute unnecessarily to the suffering of sentient beings. Sentient in my judgement, anyway. I subscribe, at least in part, to Peter Singer’s maxim that the difference between humans and nonhuman animals is not a significant enough difference to justify causing them unnecessary suffering. > > Saying something is “not significant enough to _justify causing unnecessary suffering_” is **NOT** the same as saying there is no “fundamental difference” between a man and a bull, as a whole. Note the “to justify causing unnecessary suffering” part. That doesn’t mean he thinks we are exactly like bulls, just **when it comes to suffering** , there isn’t that much of a difference in _how we experience suffering._ > \*\* While I’m quite certain **phil** doesn’t mean there is no difference between a human and a bull…this block of text could be taken either way if you just read the sentence normally. Hey…he asked for opinions on it. I don’t think it’s what he meant, but the wording is ambiguous IMHO. And I know ambigous text - a lot of people have got after me for ambiguous posts I’ve made… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419.md?page=20)