# Veganinanitarianism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 20, 2001, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419 "2001-06-20T02:40:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/381 "2001-07-01T04:41:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, that’s what Kabbes is arguing. He uses the example of Mad cow, and the “chemical cocktails” cows are injected with, and says that this is in itself sufficient reason to “opt out” and become a vegetarian from a reasoned standpoint. He is? Is this the quote that launched a thousand shits? > [@](#): > > **kabbes** > I’ve considered going vegetarian in the last few years purely as a reaction to the food scares. Since in the UK we’ve been so hit by this, the news has been full of images of the way cows are reared. It’s simply disgusting. This puts me off meat - not as an ethical consideration, but as a health one. The thought of eating that disgusting beast just sickens me. 1. He clearly states that it has not yet become a sufficient reason for him to adjust his diet. 2. He clearly focuses on his concerns for beef, not any other meat. 3. He clearly does not claim that he would give up other meats **simply because of the risks he associates with British beef**. Now, there are areas which the quote leaves unclear: which of the varied common uses of “vegetarian” did he mean? Did he feel other elements of the British livestock industry were also suspect for risky feeds and supplements? Was his disgust so deep that it colored other livestock at a purely emotional level, rather than as an element of risk analysis? Perhaps clarity on those issues might help you in your intense desire to brand a behavior which he has not taken as irrational. Perhaps not. It has been 4 pages since that quote, and it might be a little late to shift your attack away from your faulty understanding of risk assessment and onto the question of whether perceived risk in one industry justifies caution when dealing with related industries. > [@](#): > > I think that’s horse pucky. Too bad. If it was chicken pucky we could apparently turn it into cattle fee. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/382 "2001-07-01T05:20:52Z")
**spoke** Was the post in which I explained **why** simple assessment of risk was insufficient to declare a reaction irrational invisible to you, too? I really need to have a mod look into this. It is frustrating to find one’s words have vanished into Doperspace. If I really must make it clear: 1. No, I am not cribbing from Pascal’s flawed wager, but at least Pascal understood that risk cannot be evaluated without consequence. (He failed, however, to include cost. That is one of the classic flaws in his formulation.) 2. I am also not arguing that a risk analysis for British beef would create **any** unequivocal result for the general population. 3. I am also not claiming that eating beef is the “normal” position, which your formulation of “my” wager would require. (Interesting how those little assumptions come to light, isn’t it?) **Anthracite** > [@](#): > > While I’m quite certain phil doesn’t mean there is no difference between a human and a bull…this block of text could be taken either way if you just read the sentence normally. I don’t see how you can take that position without asserting that **all fundamental differences are sufficient to justify causing unnecessary suffering**. I think that **pldennison’s** formulation of Singer’s maxim is quite precise. Read it again. It both asserts that there **is** a difference between humans and other animals **and** make an ethical claim about the consequences of that difference. Only by defining “fundamental difference” in terms of that same ethical consequence can the statement be made ambiguous with respect to **jab1’s** claim. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/383 "2001-07-01T13:55:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*This is no longeer humorous, a rant, or a debate. It’s a pissing contest, and it’s bevoming genuinely nasty. I see no constructive outcome. > > I wonder if a Moderator would be willing to shut this thing down. \*\* That is precisely what I thought when I read the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/384 "2001-07-01T16:15:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muffin \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > > \*\*This is no longeer humorous, a rant, or a debate. It’s a pissing contest, and it’s bevoming genuinely nasty. I see no constructive outcome. > > > > I wonder if a Moderator would be willing to shut this thing down. \*\* > > That is precisely what I thought when I read the OP. \*\* WoW! That’s amazing! You can join psychic friends hotline, and be a soothsayer. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/385 "2001-07-01T16:22:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Muffin \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > > \*\*This is no longeer humorous, a rant, or a debate. It’s a pissing contest, and it’s bevoming genuinely nasty. I see no constructive outcome. > > > > I wonder if a Moderator would be willing to shut this thing down. \*\* > > That is precisely what I thought when I read the OP. \*\* Lie! Lie! Lie! This is what I’m talking about with that holier-than-thou attitude. When I say “no longer a humorous rant” that obviously implies that at one time it was. Since you claim to have thought “precisely that” at the OP, and that was the original post, it is impossible that you could have thought that it was “no longer” humorous. That was the first post and there was no previous one. Ergo, you are lying. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/386 "2001-07-01T18:12:12Z")
Nah, I just figured that when you started off by calling people smug, ignorant, naive, stupid flakes, the thread had nowhere to go but down. Whether you posted in jest or in earnest was not relevant. No prescience there – just common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/387 "2001-07-01T21:27:26Z")
Well, that wouldn’t be “precisely” now would it? That wouldn’t even be close. Damn leafeater. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/388 "2001-07-01T21:58:32Z")
This post was made by me on page 7: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > > **I would find it more than a little audacious for [someone](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=76023) to be in [other threads](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=74033&pagenumber=3) stating that it is always wrong to kill any person at any time for any reason, but to then describe a belief that it is wrong to cause unnecessary suffering in creatures capable of feeling it as “ignorant and dangerous.” One might be give pause to wonder what such a person was smoking. IIRC, that person also has some odd opinions about gun control.** > > If you are referring to me, please have the courtesy (and the balls) to do so by name. Thank you. > > If you cannot figure out why it is wrong to kill people but not animals, you’re an even dumber piece of shit than I thought. I swear I have never before met someone who is willing to kill people but not animals. It’s absurd! It’s completely illogical. There are enormous differences between humans and other animals and anyone who refuses to see them is being willfully blind. > > > [@](#): > > > > **Oh no! We can’t have people having _screwy opinions_! Such a thing is impermissible in polite society! We must eye them with great suspicion! We must ever be on the alert against hearing ideas which differ from our own!** > > No, we must be on the alert for people who have dangerous ideas. An idea different from mine but which poses no threat to me is acceptable. Also, a person who espouses an idea ought to be willing to hear challenges. If you don’t want to run the risk of being challenged, keep your ideas to yourself. But since this is cowardly… > > Let me ask all the vegans and vegetarians this: When you saw this thread, did you truly believe your replies to **Scylla** would go unchallenged? You do realize how naive that is, right? > > > [@](#): > > > > **Everyone, everywhere, believes at least one thing that is fundamentally stupid.** > > And it behooves us all to try to change our stupid beliefs. It looks to me like you never try. Only an idiot would be happy with being ignorant. Only an utter fool would say, “I don’t care if my beliefs are wrong! I’m gonna believe 'em anyway!” > > BTW, what beliefs of YOURS are “fundamentally stupid”? Do you have the nerve to list them? I don’t have any stupid beliefs. > > You’re an idiot, **dennison**. (And yes, I DO remember how much it pisses you off for me to refer to you by your last name. And don’t YOU forget that this is the Pit.) I called **pldennison** discourteous, lacking balls, dumb piece of shit, willfully blind, idiot, (twice) and utter fool. Nowhere did I call him a liar. I mistakenly remembered him saying he is willing to kill people but not animals. I do not see how that can be construed as accusing him of lying. In **pld** ’s response, he called me a liar repeatedly: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > _Originally posted by jab1:_ > > If you are referring to me, please have the courtesy (and the balls) to do so by name. Thank you.\*\* > > OK. I’m talking about jab1. > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > If you cannot figure out why it is wrong to kill people but not animals, you’re an even dumber piece of shit than I thought.\*\* > > Um, where did I ever say such a thing? Please find me one single post. One. Just one. One where I have said out right that it is inherently wrong to kill animals (hint: I have stated throughout this thread that it is NOT wrong to kill animals, that it is wrong to cause unnecessary suffering). One where I have said it is OK to kill people. If you are accusing me of espousing such a thing, you are a fucking liar, and I am going to ask to have you banned. I will gladly have arguments with people, but I will not be slurred and defamed by the likes of a fucking half-wit little turd like you. > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > I swear I have never before met someone who is willing to kill people but not animals.\*\* > > And you still haven’t. **Liar.** Or have you missed me posting in every single fucking death penalty thread in opposition to capital punishment? **You are a fucking liar.** > > > [@](#): > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*\* > > > It’s absurd! It’s completely illogical. There are enormous differences between humans and other animals and anyone who refuses to see them is being willfully blind.\*\* > > > > I see you read about as well as Milo does, you little lying fuckwit. > > \*\*Hey, I’m either a liar or I can’t read too good. Which is it? > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > No, we must be on the alert for people who have dangerous ideas.\*\* > > You mean like, “It is always wrong to ever kill anyone, ever”? Here is what I ACTUALLY said on the other [thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=76023) you referred to: > [@](#): > > All murderers are evil, no matter how many people they have killed.\*\* Please note that I said “murderers” and not “killers”. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > And it behooves us all to try to change our stupid beliefs. It looks to me like you never try.\*\* > > Yeah. It’s not like I ever used to be a Fundamentalist Christian, you lying little bitch. Geez, you’re so dumb, you think I’m a woman. Also, folks, please note that he said fundamentalist Christianity is a stupid belief. Thank you. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > **: > > Only an idiot would be happy with being ignorant.** > > Then you must be in utter fucking bliss, you fucking piece of human shit. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > BTW, what beliefs of YOURS are “fundamentally stupid”? Do you have the nerve to list them?\*\* > > You first, liar. No, you made the unproven assertion. You go first. Maybe you could list the stupid beliefs of such people as Stephen Hawking or Cecil Adams or **David B** or… You get the idea. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > I don’t have any stupid beliefs.\*\* > > Except for “It is always wrong to ever kill a person at any time.” A sick little part of me hopes you’re one day faced with taking the life of a murderer or watching your loved ones slaughtered before your eyes. You can sit there with your fundamentally stupid belief knowing you could have saved them but were too much of a fucking ignoramus to do it. I hope the guilt drives you insane, asshole. I still want an apology for this. But I checked your profile and you have not been here since yesterday at 12:46 PM PDT, so you have yet to see this message. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2001, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/389 "2001-07-01T23:59:06Z")
I really wish a moderator would shut this down. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2001, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/390 "2001-07-02T00:13:24Z")
Alright, _alright_, _ **ALRIGHT!!** _ Had a bit of a busy weekend. And since none of the local crew have responded to **Scylla** ’s repeated requests, I’ll just do the honours for now. Closed at request of the OP. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419.md?page=19)