# Veganinanitarianism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 20, 2001, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419 "2001-06-20T02:40:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/141 "2001-06-21T13:31:41Z")
PLD: I truly don’t understand your viewpoint. It seems you recognize that Vegetarianism is a largely symbolic gesture. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/142 "2001-06-21T13:33:26Z")
You know, people can eat what they want. And their reasons are their own. And if they are happy that way, who the hell cares? Disliking evangelical vegetarians is no reason to dislike vegetarianism. Especially with such vitriol. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/143 "2001-06-21T13:37:04Z")
Scylla, pretty much everything we do is a symbolic gesture. We all end up dead in the end, don’t we? **My** choice to become vegetarian is non-symbolic to the extent that it satisfies my personal ethical constraints. The same can be said of anyone’s decision to do anything. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/144 "2001-06-21T13:42:26Z")
Fair enough. Looks like we’re beating the dead horse. I’d prefer to eat it 😉 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/145 "2001-06-21T13:55:34Z")
I really don’t see why **Scylla** has gone out of his way to insult people who choose to eat vegetables.It seems like you have an unreasoning prejudice against plant-eaters, which makes no sense because a vegetarian diet is a rational choice. Vegetarians have lower rates of cancer, less chance of dying of heart disease, and are generally healthier than carnivores. In addition, fresh vegetables are cheaper than meat, so eschewing meat is as easy on the wallet as it is on the arteries. Moreover, because large-scale ranching has marked deleterious effects on the environment, one could argue that vegetarians are helping to protect the environment by not eating animals. Moreover, both \*\* Scylla\*\* and **Milossarian** ought to know that there is a distinct difference between vegans and vegetarians. It doesn’t help your argument if you ignore the niceties of nomenclature. I will agree that the New Age/crystal wearing/will-believe anything-that-some-guru-tells-them-crowd is annoying, but while New Agers do intersect with the vegan/vegetarian crowd, they are by no means synonymous. It is entirely possible to be a vegetarian on a purely rational basis. I’m not a vegetarian because I lift weights and soy protein just doesn’t cut it when it comes to getting bigger, but just because I don’t share their choices does not give me the right to denigrate vegetarians. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/146 "2001-06-21T13:59:33Z")
goboy: > [@](#): > > vegetarian diet is a rational choice. Vegetarians have lower rates of cancer, less chance of dying of heart disease, and are generally healthier than carnivores. In addition, fresh vegetables are cheaper than meat, so eschewing meat is as easy on the wallet as it is on the arteries. Yeah, but here it is, page 3 and you’re the first to mention it. I would agree that those are rational reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/147 "2001-06-21T14:32:23Z")
Hey dennison - want to snap out of your personal insults and self-congratulatory reverie long enough to explain how “unnecessary suffering” is prevented by a person not eating meat? Suffering of one living organism is replaced by the suffering of another. Or many others. If vegetarianism is being done out of a sense of morality, it is not inappropriate in a discussion of same to note that a person is making a value judgement about particular living organisms and particular ways that they die, while being rather blase about other living organisms’ suffering and death - or even the same animals, dying in different, maybe worse, ways as a result of their choices. To some outside observers, this tends to make the hand-wringing over certain subclasses rather puzzling. Given that we are part of a natural system that we can’t extricate ourselves from, even if our sense of superiority is pldennison-sized. (Of course, the acts of one vegetarian don’t amount to a fruit fly fart to the cosmos. But for about the tenth time, if it makes an individual person feel better, THAT’S GREAT!) But all of this has been pointed out repeatedly. Stop trying to focus on how much smarter you are than me, and pay attention. You’ll tear a rotator cuff patting yourself on the back that much. Prick. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/148 "2001-06-21T14:47:35Z")
Milo, you haven’t said a single respectful thing or asked a single respectful question in this thread, and now you want to be treated with respect? Fuck you. Act like you deserve it, and you’ll get it, you putz. If you’re honestly unable to see how reducing the demand for meat reduces the number of animals subjected to horrific factory-farm rearing and slaughterhouse method, you are an even bigger moron than you previously indicated. I’m not going to educate you in Market Forces 101. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/149 "2001-06-21T14:57:25Z")
Oh, and to put my money where my mouth is . . . Milo’s first post in the thread, consisting of vicious stereotyping (“the blatant illogic of vegetarianism,” as if everyone who is vegetarian becomes so for the same reason), _ad hominem_ (“self-loathing and delusion”) and mockery: > [@](#): > > And the same goes for Gore and Nader voters. > (Sorry. Couldn’t resist.) > > Scylla, don’t let their lower-lip-sucking get you down. On a board dedicated to fighting ignorance, you have very succinctly (and hilariously) pointed out the blatant illogic of vegetarianism. > > To each their own? Absolutely! So long as nowhere, even in the furthest recesses of the back of your mind, are you deluding yourself that your eating habits make you more moral, kind or sophisticated. That would be a lie. They don’t. > > We are incapbable of survival without causing the suffering of other living things. Self-loathing and/or delusion makes that no less true. Milo’s second post, consisting of nothing but mockery, and being wholly irrelevant, since vegetarians like me who assign validity to Singer’s maxim about significant difference recognize that the difference between flora and fauna **is** significant: > [@](#): > > … And have you ever seen what those thresher machines do to those poor, defenseless wheat plants? > > Oh, that’s right. We don’t give a fuck, because the wheat plant’s agony isn’t apparent to us. > > Pass the Malt O’ Meal! Milo’s third post, the one to which I responded, which consists of nothing but gainsaying (“I bet I know why people _really_ become vegetarians!”), further _ad hominem_, ignorance of the difference between vegetarians and vegans (how would a Catholic like it if you called him a Mormon?) and further mockery: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Complex arguments and a lot of soul-searching > > > [@](#): > > > > Veganism is decided upon based on an examination of one’s own personal ethical considerations. > > I’d venture a guess that most vegetarianism (I refuse to use the Oprah-fied word) is a shallow, emotion-based decision that does not stand up to logical scrutiny. As has been proven in this thread. > > Not that there’s anything wrong with that. People are veggies because it makes them feel better? OK by me. > > It’s only when they move past that foundation and start playing pretend, that it’s a more sophisticated or kinder and gentler way of living, that the “uh-uh” detector goes off. > > > [@](#): > > > > You know better. It’s bullshit. > > Actually, given the subject matter and the crowd, that smell could be two-day-old tofu. Like I said, I’ll play tough but fair, and give like I get. Those are the kind of posts you want to make, those are the kinds of posts I’m going to give you back. You want to play differently, say so. But I’m not going to refrain from calling you a moron when you say something moronic. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/150 "2001-06-21T15:20:32Z")
PL: > [@](#): > > \*\*Those are the kind of posts you want to make, those are the kinds of posts I’m going to give you back \*\* I was talking about vegetarianism, as practiced in a certain way, generally. You were talking about _me_. > [@](#): > > \*\*If you’re honestly unable to see how reducing the demand for meat reduces the number of animals subjected to horrific factory-farm rearing and slaughterhouse method \*\* … and then you got personally insulting again. Yep. Some livestock-keeping practices are not good. Many others (including a few with which I am personally familiar) are just fine. And as for the cow’s demise in a slaughterhouse, it is quick and efficient, in the most typical case. So, as your comments indicate, you are approaching this from the perspective that eating less beef is good because it stops the slaughter of _cows_. Ditto pork for pigs, chicken for chicken. OK. If stopping the killing of these particular animals in this particular way is a person’s goal. If it is more of a philosophical, “doing my part to stop the death and suffering of living creatures,” it does not appear to make sense upon scrutiny. For many reasons that have been stated by a few people. Your first cut-and-paste by me is _mockery_? Sorry if it makes you feel bad, but mockery it isn’t. (In fact, the esteemed Scylla’s OP contains statements that on their face are much more mocking.) Cut-and-paste number 2? Again, makes an assertion about the topic of discussion at hand. You see this as a personal attack? No; what _you’ve_ been doing is a personal attack, dennison. Do plants feel agony, in a plant’s way? Of course they do. But vegetarians don’t give this a second thought. Why? Is the plant’s agony no less than a cow’s, just because it is not as high an order of organism, or because we can’t perceive the pain? Sorry if you feel that’s “irrelevant” to the discussion at hand, PL. I don’t. [insert personally insulting statement denoting intellectual superiority here on your next cut and paste] ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/151 "2001-06-21T15:36:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Do plants feel agony, in a plant’s way? Of course they do. But vegetarians don’t give this a second thought. Why? Is the plant’s agony no less than a cow’s, just because it is not as high an order of organism, or because we can’t perceive the pain? Nonsense, plants can’t feel pain because they lack a central nervous system. No brain, no pain. (Please, no obvious George W. jokes) Cows, on the other hand, do have a central nervous system and do feel pain. **Milo** ,when you can take a break from your pissing contest with **PL** , would you comment on the reasons for vegetarianism enumerated in my previous post? (vegetarians are healthier, vegetables are cheaper to buy, vegetarians don’t contribute to the pollution caused by industrial ranching)? ---
**Author:** ![ThisYearsGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@ThisYearsGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisYearsGirl)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/152 "2001-06-21T15:49:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SPOOFE \* > \*\ ***Beef: It’s what’s for dinner.** \*\* Oh my God, an advertising slogan! I can’t argue with that!!! You meat-eaters are all so fucking brilliant! ---
**Author:** ![ThisYearsGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@ThisYearsGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisYearsGirl)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/153 "2001-06-21T15:50:56Z")
By the way, my last post was sarcastic. I don’t know if that came through. And please no one make a series of stupid and unfunny jokes, like the ones resulting from my last angry sarcastic post in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/154 "2001-06-21T16:36:12Z")
Scylla; that line about the chicken head winking was truly funny. However, regarding the Beef commercials. Rememeber when James Garner was the spokesman for them? Then he had to have heart surgery? Not good publicity eh? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/155 "2001-06-21T17:31:37Z")
Goboy: Just for the record, while it’s certainly true that Vegetarianism is cheaper, and healthier than a typical omnivore’s diet (we eat too much meat,) I do believe that the optimum diet healthwise does contain **some** meat. Milo et al: [quote] (In fact, the esteemed Scylla’s OP contains statements that on their face are much more mocking.) [quote] Esteemed? I am but a lowly worm. A fool. I would hate to think that I was esteemed for my nasty little self-indulgent rant with its thin cloaking of humor. My shotgun approach and blanket condemnation/refutation of all forms of vegetarianism, isn’t exactly the nicest thing I’ve ever done. I will freely confess to an immature, gleeful, guilty pleasure in just letting 'er rip. (Plus the thing with This Year’s Girl is just turning me on. Nothing sexier than an angry hippy chick 😉 ) And frankly I’m surprised at myself and a little puzzled at myself for having defended the whole thing so vociferously. All things considered, I think I’ve been treated a lot nicer than I merit, here. Clearly though, I find fault with much of Vegan/Vegetarian rationale, and think there’s much better, more effective ways to be an ethical human. Can we all say it was fun and be nice, or is it too late? ---
**Author:** ![ScoobyTX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@ScoobyTX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ScoobyTX)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/156 "2001-06-21T21:25:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*However, regarding the Beef commercials. Rememeber when James Garner was the spokesman for them? > Then he had to have heart surgery? > Not good publicity eh? \*\* Remember when Jim Fixx helped to popularize running as an exercise activity? Then he dropped dead at age 52 of a heart attack while running? Not good publicity eh? :rolleyes: Sometimes people die, or get horrible diseases, that have nothing to do with their lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2001, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/157 "2001-06-21T21:30:19Z")
The closest I can come to being a vegetarian are eating animals that are vegetarians. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/158 "2001-06-22T00:31:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*would you comment on the reasons for vegetarianism enumerated in my previous post? (vegetarians are healthier, vegetables are cheaper to buy, vegetarians don’t contribute to the pollution caused by industrial ranching)? \*\* I thought I already had, goboy. Not eating meat, for 10,000 different reasons, is _fine_. My comments questioning the practice were directed at a particular type of vegetarian. Your points all make _some_ sense to me. Although: - Don’t necessarily make the leap that growing more vegetables = less pollution. Where I live, runoff from farms – both the livestock and crop-growing varieties – is the second biggest threat to our water quality, next to general erosion and runoff. - There are medical studies that indicate people are healthier on an all-vegetable diet than their meat-eating counterparts? I know eating a lot of red meat isn’t particularly good for a person, but what about fish- and chicken-eaters? ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2001, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/159 "2001-06-22T01:09:05Z")
This [WebMD](My comments questioning the practice were directed at a particular type of vegetarian.) column, indeed, indicates: > [@](#): > > \*\*Several studies show that meat, which has a high amount of saturated fat and cholesterol, can increase the risk of heart disease in both men and women. The risk of developing heart disease among meat-eaters is 50 percent higher than that of vegetarians. \*\* However, it is silent on whether avoiding _red_ meat makes a difference. And it also says: > [@](#): > > \*\*However, in all fairness to the T-bone steak, meat may not be the only factor at play. Instead, people who eat less meat may be benefiting from the protective effects of other foods, especially the fruits, vegetables, whole grains and legumes found in a vegetarian diet. This is what researchers found when they studied members of the Seventh-day Adventist religious group, who are vegetarian. Researchers studying the group found that they developed fewer cases of cancer than the general population. But they also discovered it wasn’t their avoiding meat that necessarily protected them from cancer; rather, their consumption of lots of fruits, legumes and vegetables appeared to give them added protection against certain cancers. > > To add to the controversy, a recent study published in the June 26, 1999 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine found that including a little extra-lean red meat in the weekly diet did not increase the risk for developing heart disease in a group of men and women. > > Since meat is the very best and most easily absorbed source of iron, premenopausal women, teenage girls and young children – all of whom are at high risk for iron deficiency – might consider including a little meat in their diets. In short, while the days of the 16-ounce steak are gone, a 3-ounce serving of extra-lean meat (7 percent fat by weight) a couple times a week is not a problem. \*\* And what is one to make of this? > [@](#): > > \*\*I won’t claim meat is the ideal source of protein, but on the whole it’s better than plants. Sure, soybeans and other products of modern agriculture are pretty nutritious. But in the wild, much of the plant menu consists of leaves and stems, which are low in food value. True herbivores have to spend much of the day scrounging for snacks just to keep their strength up. > > So make no mistake: we were born to eat meat. That’s not to say you have to. \*\* While not a directly on-point discussion, the guy goes on to say, as I have been trying to, I guess unsuccessfully, that while there may be many good reasons for choosing to be a vegetarian, it’s when it is taken to a level of claims that aren’t true that it gets annoying. That was some guy named [Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_087.html) ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2001, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419/160 "2001-06-22T01:33:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Myrr21 \* > (And I’m not exagerating about 100 pounds; I have no idea what makes em so freaky thin, but it sure ain’t diet) \*\* Does the term CRANK ring any bells [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganinanitarianism/69419.md?page=9)