# Veganism at fault for mental deficiency. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 31, 2003, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838 "2003-01-31T08:19:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Elza\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Elza\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elza_B)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/41 "2003-01-31T14:53:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by booka \* > \*\* > > But, it would be fun to listen to a vegan atheist argue with a Christian fundamentalist meat-eater. Could they ever find common ground? \*\* The problem is, those things are not mutually exclusive. I’m Christian. Every ‘lifestyle’ has zealots: Christianity, veganism, Paganism, etc. Unfortunately, those few zealots tend to overshadow the rest of the lifestyle. Most people are _not_ zealots, but are unfortunately painted with the same brush because the zealots are so outspoken. Ava ---
**Author:** ![Flutterby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Flutterby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flutterby)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/42 "2003-01-31T14:53:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > What of the wheat? Does nobody care that **BILLION** of stalks of wheat are heartlessly butchered **EACH** and **EVERY** year!? What about the plight of the noble bean? Doomed to a life as tofu? Why does nobody speak out for them, the least among us? Instead, brazen and cruel groups of people have dedicated their lived to _eating nothing but them_!!! I’ve heard the screams of the vegetables (scream, scream, scream) Watching their skins being peeled (having their insides revealed) Grated and steamed with no mercy (burning off calories) How do you think that feels (bet it hurts really bad) Carrot juice constitutes murder (and that’s a real crime) Greenhouses prisons for slaves (let my vegetables go) It’s time to stop all this gardening (it’s dirty as hell) Let’s call a spade a spade (is a spade is a spade is a spade) -Arrogant Worms ‘Carrot Juice Is Murder’ ---
**Author:** ![Azael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a8b319/32.png) [@Azael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azael)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/43 "2003-01-31T14:59:53Z")
I thought it was the other way around… Mental deficiency leads to veganism. hmmm… which leads to mental deficiency… Its a vicious circle! ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/44 "2003-01-31T15:02:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Azael \* > **Mental deficiency leads to veganism.** So how long have you been a vegan? ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/45 "2003-01-31T15:09:24Z")
Well, duh. Intelligent vegans will examine their nutritionary needs, their caloric intake, their vitamin requirements, consult the experts and the literature, and adjust their diet accordingly. These folks are likely to be healthy, due to their attention to their diet and the lack of animal fat. Dumb vegans will just eat whatever other vegans tell them is good and safe and properly Vegan. These people might well develop vitamin deficiencies and ghod knows what else, depending on who they’ve been listening to. Hell, I’ve even managed to hear (uncited, unfortunately) about one case of scurvy. How the hell do you get SCURVY, living on fruits and plants? Now think about it, folks… can you think of ANY group, organization, or moiety of humanity that was made ENTIRELY of smart people? Or stupid people, for that matter? No. You’re going to have the smart ones and the idiots, same as anywhere else… ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/46 "2003-01-31T15:30:42Z")
IMHO, if a parent is going to feed their developing child a vegan diet, they **must** be highly educated about the possible pitfalls, and take **complete** responsibility for ensuring their child gets all necessary nutrients for normal development. Nutritional deficits during early childhood can have a terrible and permanent impact. A diet a healthy adult can flourish on does not translate as a healthy diet for a growing child. Can one raise healthy vegan kids? Yes, but unless attention is paid, consequences far greater than unrestrained dining at McDonald’s can develop. Of course, a parent feeding their kid an omnivore diet would also be better off being knowledgeable and responsible too. But consequences can be more dire with an inadequately planned vegan diet. Improperly supervised vegan diet during childhood: Permanent neurologic deficits in childhood. Improperly supervised omnivore diet during childhood: Obesity and premature diabetes in the teens and 20’s. Both very nasty. Which would _you_ rather deal with? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/47 "2003-01-31T15:30:50Z")
> [@](#): > > If plants were to feel nothing then how do they know to seek out light if you try growing them in a dark box with light at the end of a simple maze? I’m pretty sure this post was just funnin’ with the vegans, but I’ll give a serious response. Plants turn toward light due to the phototropic response, which is a hormonally regulated function. However, that is not the same as possessing the ability to feel. Plants do not have brains or nervous systems–they cannot feel anything, and because they lack a vocal apparatus, they can’t scream either. Well, except for the mandrakes, of course. Anyway, I don’t care what a pack of food faddists put into their bellies. If munching on wheat grass makes them happy, more power to them. But if they force that diet on their pets, oops, “companion animals” or their children, they will cause malnutrition and vitamin deficiencies. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/48 "2003-01-31T15:59:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > **IMHO, if a parent is going to feed their developing child a vegan diet, they must be highly educated about the possible pitfalls, and take complete responsibility for ensuring their child gets all necessary nutrients for normal development. Nutritional deficits during early childhood can have a terrible and permanent impact. A diet a healthy adult can flourish on does not translate as a healthy diet for a growing child.** Well and good. And I retort: if if a parent is going to feed their developing child _any sort of diet at all_, they **must** be highly educated about the possible pitfalls, and take **complete** responsibility. [Example.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/404667.stm) And BTW, IANAV. ---
**Author:** ![Reuben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@Reuben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reuben)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/49 "2003-01-31T16:03:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Edward The Head \* > **And exactly how do you know that plants feel nothing?** I **assume** that they don’t **suffer**. Given a modicum of common sense and the barest smattering of knowledge about pain receptors, nerves and brains, it’s a pretty reasonable assumption. It is fantastically unlikely that plants suffer being harvested. It is certain knowledge that animals do suffer (and suffer greatly) in meat production. The thrust of your (really Brutus’) ‘argument’ is that we veggies (and vegans) are hypocrites for not considering plant suffering. Since there is no credible evidence that there is any suffering involved, the ridiculous charge falls at the first fence as it always does. And if it’s hypocracy we’re interested in, why don’t you tell me why you _don’t_ eat dogs and cats and other such cuddly creatures? ---
**Author:** ![sezyou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@sezyou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sezyou)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/50 "2003-01-31T16:48:55Z")
I think the finest example of the wrongness of Veganism is the Venus Fly Trap. A pure plant that is completely natural and perfect that exists to be an omnivore. If it wrong for us to eat meat, then it should follow that plants shouldn’t either damn it! ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/51 "2003-01-31T17:08:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sWitchazel \* > \*\*Vegan babies can and do breastfeed because the milk comes from a human as part of a natural bodily function instead of from an animal source. Think- cow milk is for baby cows, human milk is for baby humans, whale milk is for baby whales, etc. > \*\* You’re missing the point. The contention is that a vegan mommy’s milk does not have all of the necessary nutrients because of her diet. Obviously vegan babies breastfeed. haj ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/52 "2003-01-31T17:15:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sezyou \* > \*\*I think the finest example of the wrongness of Veganism is the Venus Fly Trap. > > If it wrong for us to eat meat, then it should follow that plants shouldn’t either damn it! \*\* I’m sorry, how does that follow, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/53 "2003-01-31T17:16:21Z")
I am curious about if, in the future thanks to stem cell research and advances in genetics, we are able to ‘grow’ meat in a petrie dish without having to grow the whole cow/chicken/pig. Would eating meat still be wrong? If there was no conciousness, no pain receptors behind it? Is it wrong for Vegans to eat sausage trees? What about wild game that is eaten? The animal spent its life in the wild; an accurate shot would kill it instantly. I don’t see any more suffering to the animal in this situation- it would die a more violent death potentially in the hands of other predators or disease. Now please excuse me while I go eat some tuna-safe dolphin 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/54 "2003-01-31T17:18:49Z")
We should leave the vegans alone, and just go persecute the stupid people, instead… ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/55 "2003-01-31T17:18:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hajario \* > **You’re missing the point. The contention is that a vegan mommy’s milk does not have all of the necessary nutrients because of her diet.** Actually, It seemed that the contention of Brutus’ first post was that: > [@](#): > > Babies obviously weren’t meant to be vegans, hence the boobie thingees on women. It wasn’t until SPOOFE posted that the nutrients dealy was brought up. ---
**Author:** ![sWitchazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@sWitchazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sWitchazel)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/56 "2003-01-31T17:42:03Z")
Thanks carrot. It was Brutus’ post I was referring to, but I did kind of gloss over the gist of SPOOFE’s post, so haj isn’t completely off base either. It’s just that I’ve heard way too often from vegan bashers that “vegan babies shouldn’t breastfeed because it’s DAIRY!”. It’s not obvious to everyone, obviously. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/57 "2003-01-31T17:46:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sWitchazel \* > **Thanks carrot. It was Brutus’ post I was referring to, but I did kind of gloss over the gist of SPOOFE’s post, so haj isn’t completely off base either.** I figured that was how it went, but I was just trying to head off the misunderstanding before it could really get going. Sone kind of Pitizen I am, right?😉 ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/58 "2003-01-31T18:15:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carrot \* > \*\*I figured that was how it went, but I was just trying to head off the misunderstanding before it could really get going. \*\* Damn you, **carrot**. This was heading for a name calling, nasty fight until you stuck your nosey nose into it. Thanks for nothing. Plus, you missed the perfect opportunity to say, “My name is carrot. All of you vegans can eat me.” Haj ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/59 "2003-01-31T18:20:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hajario \* > **Damn you, carrot. This was heading for a name calling, nasty fight until you stuck your nosey nose into it. Thanks for nothing.** Glad to be of service. 😛 > [@](#): > > **Plus, you missed the perfect opportunity to say, "My name is carrot. All of you vegans can eat me."** I thought about that, but, since it’s carrot, I’m actually an equal opportunity food. No one must be deprived of the wonder of consumption that is me. C’mon, get your carrot stick now! ---
**Author:** ![Archergal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Archergal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Archergal)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2003, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/60 "2003-01-31T18:22:35Z")
\ There’s one line of thinking (sample [here](http://sunflower.bio.indiana.edu/~tord/ids18.html/) that says that crop farming is responsible for MORE animal deaths than us regular old meat-eating people are. Think of all the little animals that are crushed under harrow machines, combines, and harvester, as well as the habitat loss as more and more land goes to crop plantings. \