# Veganism at fault for mental deficiency. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 31, 2003, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838 "2003-01-31T08:19:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/101 "2003-02-02T04:17:24Z")
I won’t put cruelty between my buns! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Lodrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@Lodrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lodrain)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/102 "2003-02-02T04:42:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Iamthat \* > **Some people like Gandhi and Krishnamurti had never even tasted animal flesh, although they may have drank their bodily secretions.** For the record: Gandhi did eat meat for a while, when he left India to pursue a career in England. He believed at the time that it would help India if everyone there started eating meat. He reasoned that the Europeans conquered India because they ate meat, and were, therefore, stronger. He later recanted, of course. Carry on, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/103 "2003-02-02T06:47:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by norinew \* > Any woman who is nourishing a child from her own body (this means pregnancy as well as breastfeeding) needs to be hyper-aware of what is and is not good for her baby. This means: no tobacco, no alcohol, **plenty of vitamins** (you should take supplements no matter what your diet consists of), no excess of coffee, tea or empty calories. There are clueless parents from all dietary walks of life. (my emphasis added) Unfortunately, an excess of vitamin A is just one more of those thousands of things that cause birth defects. It’s fair enough to expect doctors advising pregnant women to know about these things, but the average person knows jack shit. ---
**Author:** ![JDeMobray](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@JDeMobray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDeMobray)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/104 "2003-02-02T06:54:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lezlers \* > \*\*Oh, you’re _so_ witty. :rolleyes: \*\* I said I wasn’t trying to be witty. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Not everyone likes wit. Blind repitition can be just as funny as actual wit, assuming you soak it in Thousand Island dressing and mustard first. And close your eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/105 "2003-02-02T07:03:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > \*\*I won’t put cruelty between my buns! :mad: \*\* Dunno if Mssr.Astro is being facetious or not, but those words are words to live by! ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/106 "2003-02-02T08:32:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by carrot \* > \*\ ***mischievous** , you wouldn’t happen to know where to find some info on that, would you? I looked a bit, but couldn’t find anything about the early pregnancy stuff. I’m just curious, really. \*\* **mischievous** hasn’t come back to post a link, so I’ll provide a few: [http://am-i-pregnant.com/folate.shtml](http://am-i-pregnant.com/folate.shtml) [http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA04/spina\_bifida\_cause\_disc.html](http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA04/spina_bifida_cause_disc.html) [http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4942a4.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4942a4.htm) [http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/aug17/kennedy/kennedy.html](http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/aug17/kennedy/kennedy.html) Enjoy reading. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/107 "2003-02-02T14:31:49Z")
Regarding that vegan cheeseless pizza… Aren’t there eggs or milk in pizza dough? Or is it made without either one? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/108 "2003-02-02T14:42:27Z")
No, **Bibliocat**. Flour, yeast, water, salt, oil. Or self-raising flour instead of the flour and yeast. ---
**Author:** ![Innanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecd19e/32.png) [@Innanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Innanna)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/109 "2003-02-02T19:11:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Super Gnat \* > \*\*I have a question. Collard greens are usually cooked with ham or turkey in the pot. Would most vegetarians/vegans eat collard greens, or refuse to because they were cooked with meat? > > [Note: I am aware that people take up vegetarianism/veganism for many different reasons. I am interested in all of their responses.] \*\* It really depends on what sort of veggie one happens to be… I divide us into 3 catagories–health veggies, ethical veggies, and rabid veggies A “health” veggie might indulge in a little meat or meat flavoring. An ethical veggie wouldn’t. A rabid veggie would start lecturing and handing out pamphlets… ---
**Author:** ![Wabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wabbit)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/110 "2003-02-02T20:30:38Z")
To hell with animals–they’re breathing our air, drinking our water and are after our women! I say we, as humans, should make a special effort to eat as many animals as possible just to make sure they don’t get uppity. I say there’s really no better way of putting all those creepy crawlies in their place than slapping dear old da on a spit and roasting him up in front of his family. Mmmmm, creepy crawlies… Come to think of it, we should eat plants too. Those bastards are always taking up space (OUR space, I might add) and not doing anything with it. I mean, if I had a good chunk of property you can be damn sure I wouldn’t just sit around sunbathing on it! That’s just lazy. Unless you’re actively providing me with air to breath, you’d better get the hell off of my property you lazy, no-good photosynthesizer! Our continued domination of this planet depends on everyone eating a balanced diet of other living critters. Look at them–you know they’re just dying for the chance to take us out, those sneaky bastards… ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/111 "2003-02-02T22:17:14Z")
First, for the OP: you have to have knowledge. Doing something extreme without researching the possible effects is just irresponsible. When I had my son, I bought a book called _Vegetarian Baby_ that discussed all the nutritional needs of a growing baby, what foods had them, etc. The book also addressed a vegan diet. It also discussed the nutritional needs of a nursing mother. It’s not hard to educate yourself, and she was negligent IMO. The woman’s doctor dropped the ball on this one as well. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*What of the wheat? Does nobody care that **BILLION** of stalks of wheat are heartlessly butchered **EACH** and **EVERY** year!? What about the plight of the noble bean? Doomed to a life as tofu? Why does nobody speak out for them, the least among us? Instead, brazen and cruel groups of people have dedicated their lived to _eating nothing but them_!!! \*\* This is the asinine argument that is always brought up by idiots who don’t have any legitimate points to make. :rolleyes: If I had a penny for every time I’ve heard this stupid shit I’d be a millionaire. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Steve Wright \* > **I’m not myself a vegetarian; I have friends who are, and, while they’re very healthy people, I’m not sure I want their lifestyle, which includes a lot of calculation about what goes into each meal.** I’ve been a vegetarian [not vegan] for 17 years and have never needed “a lot of calculation” about any meal. In fact, I don’t give a lot of thought to it at all. I try to choose things that are higher in protein when I can, and I take vitamin supplements, but that is about it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Edward The Head \* > \*\*And exactly how do you know that plants feel nothing? If plants were to feel nothing then how do they know to seek out light if you try growing them in a dark box with light at the end of a simple maze? \*\* Vegetarians and vegans don’t think they have no place in the food chain, we just think that we are in a different place within it. I don’t have a problem with lions killing and eating antelopes. I’d think it was pretty strange if a moose killed and ate a deer, however. In the past, humans probably had to eat meat to survive. Today, at least in America, that is no longer the case. I have the luxury of choosing not to participate. I can seat myself in a more comfortable spot [for me] in the food chain. There is no way to live life without causing some death and some suffering, as there is also no way to live without eating. It’s a question of degree. By not eating animals, I’m decreasing the amount of stuff I’m killing. An animal can _obviously_ feel and suffer, and so I avoid that. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Brutus \* > \*\*Because they care so much about what I eat? \*\* I don’t give a fuck what you eat. None of my vegetarian or vegan friends give a fuck what you eat. In fact, the only people I’ve ever personally witnessed [note that I am not saying this is universal] are the meat-eating people taunting me and criticizing me for my choice to not eat it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Incubus \* > **What about wild game that is eaten? The animal spent its life in the wild; an accurate shot would kill it instantly. I don’t see any more suffering to the animal in this situation- it would die a more violent death potentially in the hands of other predators or disease.** Me, personally? No I wouldn’t eat it. For me, personally, killing animals for food when it isn’t necessary is morally wrong. These are _my_ morals, and the guidelines by which I lead _my_ life. According to Catholics, using birth control is morally wrong, so that’s how they live their lives. I just want it to be clear here that my morals affect _me_ and for me to do something that I thought was wrong would be… wrong. If those aren’t your morals, they aren’t your morals. You live your life according to what you believe. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Archergal \* > \*\*crop farming is responsible for MORE animal deaths than us regular old meat-eating people are. \*\* err…well…no. Because you eat the animals [killing] AND the crops [killing] which makes killing x 2, whereas we only have killing x 1. There is also the matter of intent, which I consider to be non-trivial. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Super Gnat \* > \*\*I have a question. Collard greens are usually cooked with ham or turkey in the pot. Would most vegetarians/vegans eat collard greens, or refuse to because they were cooked with meat? \*\* I would not eat them if I knew, just like I won’t eat soups or sauces made with chicken broth. I also won’t pick meat out of a dish because the juices/flavor are impossible to remove and it’s just grosses me out. Some points on my own, not aimed at anyone in particular or even anyone here, just in general: Please don’t attack me for my vegetarianism because you’ve been attacked by _some other_ vegetarian/vegan in the past. Don’t taunt me with meat. Don’t hold up your hamburger and say “MMMMMMMM!!! Cow! Moooo!!” it is not funny, not original, and rather offensive. Plus it makes me think you’re a jerk and an idiot. Don’t try to use the twisted logic that since I breathe microorganisms and kill insects with my car that therefore I should stop being a vegetarian. Here is an analogy: Do you know why they try to make cleaner fuel? To reduce emissions and protect the atmosphere. But… there are still other things that cause air pollution… so why do they bother? They should just not even try to lessen the impact. Don’t say that I’m wrong for eating a veggie burger or fake leather because “if I wanted those things I should just eat meat/wear leather.” and that it’s hypocritical of me in some way. It’s a stupid and baseless argument, yet one I’ve heard countless times. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/112 "2003-02-02T22:47:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by OpalCat \* > **Doing something extreme without researching the possible effects is just irresponsible. When I had my son, I bought a book called _Vegetarian Baby_ that discussed all the nutritional needs of a growing baby, what foods had them, etc. The book also addressed a vegan diet. It also discussed the nutritional needs of a nursing mother. It’s not hard to educate yourself, and she was negligent IMO. The woman’s doctor dropped the ball on this one as well.** Good post overall, **Opal** , and proof-positive (to me) that veganism/vegitarianism does not automatically lead to mental deficiency. 😃 What I would say to the whole argument is that it’s not choosing to eat vegan or vegitarian that causes problems. Almost any diet is sustainable as long as you supplement where needed and take care with what you eat. Problems arise when you eat nothing but crap, all the time. It doesn’t really matter whether one is vegan, omnivorous, or purely carnivorous. What really matters are the choices someone makes within those broad categories. Omnivores are _just_ as likely to eat like crap and cause themselves or their offspring problems as vegans are. They key is to take care of yourself, and be sure you get what you need, and not too much of what you don’t need. If I was presented with a vegan pregnant woman and an omnivorous pregnant woman who ate at McDonald’s every day, can you guess who I’d be more concerned about? And whatever the answer, what gives me the right to criticize her for her eating habits anyway, or taunt her with my own? Live and let live, people… deal with your own shit before you get your hands on someone else’s, right? ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/113 "2003-02-02T22:55:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*… proof-positive (to me) that veganism/vegitarianism does not automatically lead to mental deficiency. 😃 \*\* Awww…shucks! You flatter me! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/114 "2003-02-03T12:50:57Z")
I tried a vegetarian diet one time, but I quit because they were too stringy and ran faster than the cows… As a serous point, babies need a high fat diet to support nervous system development, specifically, the myelin sheaths. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/115 "2003-02-03T13:28:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vunderbob \* > \*\*As a serous point, babies need a high fat diet to support nervous system development, specifically, the myelin sheaths. \*\* Is that simply a non sequitur, or are you trying to make some sort of point? What is it? That breast milk doesn’t contain fat if the mother doesn’t consume animal fat? That there are no fats other than animal fats? What? ---
**Author:** ![OpalCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8edcca/32.png) [@OpalCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OpalCat)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/116 "2003-02-03T13:36:27Z")
Well duh, you can eat Crisco by the pound and keep your girlish figure, didn’t you know? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/117 "2003-02-03T13:42:34Z")
For that matter, **vunderbob** could have been implying that humans can’t convert carbohydrates or proteins to fat either. Girlish figures everywhere! Or, with no fat at all, that could even be _boyish_ figures everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/118 "2003-02-03T14:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*For that matter, **vunderbob** could have been implying that humans can’t convert carbohydrates or proteins to fat either. . \*\* I think he’s implying that infants may have a tough time of it. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/119 "2003-02-03T15:13:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\*I think he’s implying that infants may have a tough time of it. \*\* There’s insufficient context. There’s nothing wrong with what **vunderbob** said, but how that relates to the topic at hand I’m not sure. A tough time of what? ---
**Author:** ![carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838/120 "2003-02-03T20:00:43Z")
Thanks for the links, **Desmostylus**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veganism-at-fault-for-mental-deficiency/151838.md?page=7)