# Vegans kill baby? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 3, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610 "2007-05-03T14:05:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![vetbridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5e925/32.png) [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/81 "2007-05-04T16:51:27Z")
[QUOTE=Autolycus] (my sympathies to the non-batshit-crazy relatives of that poor child.) [/QUOTE] Just wondering if there are any non-batshit relatives. If they are close enough to warrant sympathy, I would think they might have voiced concern over the situation antemortem. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/82 "2007-05-04T17:00:06Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] I’ve never had kids of my own, but I can usually tell hunger cry from tired cry from anger/frustrated cry from cry of pain or fear. The ability to make this distinction varies from adult to adult, and experience certainly is a factor, but it’s not at all unusual for folks to make those sorts of distinctions. [/QUOTE] I can’t chase down a cite right now, but I have read studies that show that while parents and others _believe_ they can distinguish one cry from another, when actually put to the test, they do no better than random chance. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/83 "2007-05-04T18:07:56Z")
In googling trying to find a similar case that I remembered of [Christopher Fink](http://www.cnn.com/US/9810/06/fbi.kidnapped.02/) I found several similar cases of vegans starving their children. What is with these people? ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/84 "2007-05-04T19:28:20Z")
[QUOTE=tim314] As some posters have noted above, these people aren’t remotely representative of the typical vegan. [/QUOTE] I think calling these folks vegans is kind of like calling Fred Phelps Christian. Well, yeah _technically_, but . . . ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/85 "2007-05-04T19:43:06Z")
Congratulations to you, **Pazu**! Those early months are really tough! I hope you’re able to get out some, now that the weather’s getting better. I used to take mine to the park, spread out blankets and lay them in the grass, to watch the leaves. Of course, I only started doing that after a friend pointed out to me that I could - otherwise, I would’ve assumed that It Just Wasn’t Safe Enough (bad case of newbie nervousness on my part). [QUOTE=Pazu] What did the NICU nurses tell your husband? [/QUOTE] Specifically to feed him every 4 hours (not more, not less) and to hold him at an arm’s length, cradling his head in one hand. NOT cuddle a baby? I couldn’t believe it. PM me sometime, if you’d like to share some more! ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/86 "2007-05-04T19:45:45Z")
I hope no one kicks my ass for suggesting this, but I’ve personally known a few vegans (not all, by any stretch) who are that way in a bid to stay _VERY_ thin. Further, I’ve met people who are bothered by babies that are “chubby” or “round” or “soft” or all the other things that healthy babies are. The couple in the OP are clearly bat-shit insane (not because they’re vegans) - it wouldnt’ surprise me at all if they were underfeeding their child so that it wouldn’t “get fat.” Sadly, this would not be the first time I had heard of such a thing (although the baby in that case, once diagnosed with “failure to thrive” was the subject of some interveining measures and some parenting classes and is now fine). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/87 "2007-05-04T21:15:27Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] It looks like the parents never in fact took the baby to a doctor, because they felt hospitals were filled with germs, the baby was born in a bathtub. [/QUOTE] Am I the only one who is morbidly reminded of that _Residents_ song, or do y’all just have a better-developed sense of propriety that precludes mentioning it? “Skinny was born in a bathtub, and he grew so incredibly thin…” ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/88 "2007-05-04T23:56:47Z")
[QUOTE=ENugent] I can’t chase down a cite right now, but I have read studies that show that while parents and others _believe_ they can distinguish one cry from another, when actually put to the test, they do no better than random chance. [/QUOTE] Were those tests done with just the cries, or were they in context with things like time of day, baby movements, and other cues that would provide additional help in determining what was wrong? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/89 "2007-05-05T04:03:46Z")
Kid died but his cholesterol was very low. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/90 "2007-05-05T04:43:31Z")
[QUOTE=Girl From Mars] There was a similar case in New Zealand around 5 years ago, where a 6 month old died based on his diet - the parents got 5 years each for manslaughter (site looks biased, but the article is from the [New Zealand Herald](http://www.wwrn.org/article.php?idd=12826&sec=76&cont=4) ): But I think their case was a little different, in that they choose to hide him and avoid the medical advice given, based on their religion (Seventh Day Eventists). So I guess that’s a clearer case of negligence. [/QUOTE] Woah, what? Those people sound as much like typical Seventh Day Aventists as the ones in the OP do typical vegans. Although all the adult Seventh Day Adventists I’ve known were vegetarians, none were vegans, and none of their children were expected to fully adhere to the dietary restrictions. And they went to the doctors (even for mental health issues in the case of one severely depressed child) like other people do. Don’t forget it’s oddly fashionable for fringe groups to proclaim themselves to be of a religion their beliefs little resemble. Like the “Mormons” who still have many wives, despite that church long since banning the practice. ---
**Author:** ![Girl\_From\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Girl\_From\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girl_From_Mars)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/91 "2007-05-05T07:56:41Z")
[QUOTE=elfkin477] Woah, what? Those people sound as much like typical Seventh Day Aventists as the ones in the OP do typical vegans. Although all the adult Seventh Day Adventists I’ve known were vegetarians, none were vegans, and none of their children were expected to fully adhere to the dietary restrictions. And they went to the doctors (even for mental health issues in the case of one severely depressed child) like other people do. Don’t forget it’s oddly fashionable for fringe groups to proclaim themselves to be of a religion their beliefs little resemble. Like the “Mormons” who still have many wives, despite that church long since banning the practice. [/QUOTE] Sho nuff! Knowing little about the religion other than the publicity at the time, I took the article on faith. But after your post, I Googled and found [this](http://adventist.org.au/about_adventists/misconceptions) (which given it’s the Pacific arm of the church and the topic, could very well be in response to Caleb’s death: > [@](#): > > Do Adventists promote alternative health remedies and diets above conventional medical treatments? > The Seventh-day Adventist Church does not condone removing a person from hospital care or failing to seek professional medical care. > > “The church does not condone extreme diets, the removal of children from medical care or the failure to seek advice from health professionals,” says Bevan Hokin, pathology director at Sydney Adventist Hospital in Wahroonga, New South Wales. “We believe in health care.” > > “The choice of diet is a personal matter,” says Melissa Harris, former associate director of the Adventist Health department in the South Pacific. “Adventists encourage rational and responsible decision-making about what foods to eat. Diet alone is not a treatment for disease or illness.” ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2007, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/92 "2007-05-05T14:42:05Z")
[QUOTE=Broomstick] Were those tests done with just the cries, or were they in context with things like time of day, baby movements, and other cues that would provide additional help in determining what was wrong? [/QUOTE] I’d like to know more about this, too. While during the first two to three weeks, I couldn’t tell what my baby’s cry meant (hell, I could hardly sit up), after about four to six weeks, they did sound different. Hunger was a lower-pitched cry. Dirty or sleepy was a whiny, nasal cry. Pain was this piercing, vibrating scream that scared the bejesus out of me. However, I’ll have to admit that I wasn’t always right and that it was sometimes hard to tell what he wanted without other cues - sucking fists and rooting when hungry, eye rubbing when sleepy, arched back if hurting, etc. ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2007, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/93 "2007-05-07T15:54:49Z")
I’ll see if I can find the cites. I think it was in the book _What’s Going On in There_ (which I would recommend to any well-educated parent, btw). ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/94 "2007-05-11T00:00:43Z")
Recently CNN had a video of the dad complaining about the food in jail. He said, prior to sentencing, “First of all, they don’t feed you right in here. I’m dying every day in here.” ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/95 "2007-05-11T09:28:59Z")
[QUOTE=Ca3799] Recently CNN had a video of the dad complaining about the food in jail. He said, prior to sentencing, “First of all, they don’t feed you right in here. I’m dying every day in here.” [/QUOTE] Then I hope someone steps in when he’s down to about 50% of the weight he ought to be. _Some_ mercy is appropriate even to the terminally stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/96 "2007-05-11T13:10:21Z")
You mean jail cafeterias don’t have a vegan meal option? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610/97 "2007-05-11T17:00:50Z")
[QUOTE=Running\_In\_Place] After hearing the father talk, I’m leaning toward really really really fucking stupid. [/QUOTE] I tend to agree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-kill-baby/402610.md?page=4)