# Vegans should just starve to death.
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 23, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264 "2009-12-23T01:21:06Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/21 "2009-12-23T04:47:25Z")
> [@GameHat](#):
>
> /minor troll on
> Could we have ethically eaten Terry Schiavo?
> /minor troll off.
Only if she stipulated beforehand that’s how she wanted her body disposed of. Same principle as organ donation.
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### Author:  [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/22 "2009-12-23T05:20:54Z")
> [@Spartydog](#):
>
> This article from the NY Times:
Isn’t linking to articles where you need to either register or give them your CC number frowned upon here?😕
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### Author:  [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/23 "2009-12-23T05:23:42Z")
1. You don’t need to give the NY Times your credit card.
2. Anyways, not to my knowledge (IANAMod, etc…)
3. [Bugmenot.com](http://Bugmenot.com)
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### Author:  [@rhubarbarin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rhubarbarin)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/24 "2009-12-23T15:03:36Z")
Most vegans I know right now do seem to be starving, if not for want of calories, for that of nutrients. They all lack much energy, have bad teeth, and are often ill with a high likelihood of chronic pain conditions (backs, knees, fibromyalgia, arthritis). The women have trouble getting pregnant. The kids have ADHD and get cavities in their baby teeth.
I have known some vegans who seemed hale and hearty, I just don’t know any right now.
It’s sad, really. I can’t gloat, even though I am pretty sure my carnivorous lifestyle is much healthier for the human body, and if done right (pasture-raised animals who give back to the soil and don’t consume grains/soybeans), for the planet.
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### Author:  [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/25 "2009-12-23T15:53:25Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#):
>
> Most vegans I know right now do seem to be starving, if not for want of calories, for that of nutrients. They all lack much energy, have bad teeth, and are often ill with a high likelihood of chronic pain conditions (backs, knees, fibromyalgia, arthritis). The women have trouble getting pregnant. The kids have ADHD and get cavities in their baby teeth.
>
> I have known some vegans who seemed hale and hearty, I just don’t know any right now.
>
> It’s sad, really. I can’t gloat, even though I am pretty sure my carnivorous lifestyle is much healthier for the human body, and if done right (pasture-raised animals who give back to the soil and don’t consume grains/soybeans), for the planet.
Said what!!! You need to get out more…
Start with India. Not only are there are lot of Hindus (and a fair amount of Jains) who are vegans; a bunch of 'em are gorgeous. And they seem to be getting pregnant reasonably easily as well. There are a billion or so last I heard.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/26 "2009-12-23T15:56:10Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> Said what!!! You need to get out more…
>
> Start with India. Not only are there are lot of Hindus (and a fair amount of Jains) who are vegans; a bunch of 'em are gorgeous. And they seem to be getting pregnant reasonably easily as well. There’s a lot of 'em.
Perhaps the vegans he knows aren’t doing it right? As I understand it, it’s easy to get various nutritional deficiencies with a plant-only diet if you do it wrong.
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### Author:  [@Clawdio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clawdio)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/27 "2009-12-23T16:00:30Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#):
>
> Most vegans I know right now do seem to be starving, if not for want of calories, for that of nutrients. They all lack much energy, have bad teeth, and are often ill with a high likelihood of chronic pain conditions (backs, knees, fibromyalgia, arthritis). The women have trouble getting pregnant. The kids have ADHD and get cavities in their baby teeth.
Do you have a cite or links to articles/studies linking a vegan diet to any of the ailments listed here?
Also, if the vegans you know are not getting the nutrients they need, it’s quite a leap to conclude that it is because of their vegan diet. I could eat nothing but steak for three meals a day and miss out on quite a lot of nutrients… but that doesn’t mean I can claim that meat eaters do not get enough nutrients. Balance is required, vegan or not.
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### Author:  [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/28 "2009-12-23T17:25:19Z")
Hmm. I am not a vegan, and I am not going to give up my salads either!
But yes, Hindu vegetatarians and vegans do quite well - mostly because they eat lots and lots of lentils, at almost every meal.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/29 "2009-12-23T17:30:12Z")
> [@Anaamika](#):
>
> Hmm. I am not a vegan, and I am not going to give up my salads either!
>
> But yes, Hindu vegetatarians and vegans do quite well - mostly because they eat lots and lots of lentils, at almost every meal.
Lentils are yummy! In New York there are little stands for the hindu cab drivers that sell $ 2 bowls of curried lentils and such.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/30 "2009-12-23T17:31:13Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Perhaps the vegans he knows aren’t doing it right? As I understand it, it’s easy to get various nutritional deficiencies with a plant-only diet if you do it wrong.
The key is lots of flax as I understand it. 😉
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/31 "2009-12-23T18:08:38Z")
What I don’t understand is the moral outrage against Vegans. I’m not a Vegan or Vegetarian, but the existence of Vegans doesn’t threaten me one bit. Yes, Veganism is something of an extravagance, but no more so than owning an iPod. It’s possible to be a douche about being a Vegan, just like it’s possible to be a douche about the car you drive (or don’t drive), but there’s nothing inherently douchey about not eating animals.
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### Author:  [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/32 "2009-12-23T18:08:59Z")
> [@rhubarbarin](#):
>
> if done right (pasture-raised animals who give back to the soil and don’t consume grains/soybeans), for the planet.
Not true – see the UN Report, _Livestock’s Long Shadow._ edit – uh, and the laws of thermodynamics – it’ll always take more energy to make a plant-eating cow than to make a plant.
As for the OP, the article says:
> [@](#):
>
> When plant biologists speak of their subjects, they use active verbs and vivid images. Plants “forage” for resources like light and soil nutrients and “anticipate” rough spots and opportunities.
That seems to be the main thrust of the article – that plant scientists use language _as if_ plants were animals.
But when I argue that animals think, use tools, have feelings, and communicate (all proven by science in various cases) I am accused of “anthropomorphism.” In fact, “anthropomorphism” is almost automatically injected, with cultlike regularity, into any discussion of animal behavior. It recently popped up in a new puppy thread, as an awful warning of a mental mistake to avoid.
Well, you [the generic you] can’t have it both ways. You can’t tell me that anthropomorphizing animals is an intellectual mistake and then turn around and argue that veganism is a false choice because “some people like to talk _as if_ plants had the capabilities of animals.” That’s “animal-morphizing” plants.
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/33 "2009-12-23T18:10:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> What I don’t understand is the moral outrage against Vegans. I’m not a Vegan or Vegetarian, but the existence of Vegans doesn’t threaten me one bit. Yes, Veganism is something of an extravagance, but no more so than owning an iPod. It’s possible to be a douche about being a Vegan, just like it’s possible to be a douche about the car you drive (or don’t drive), but there’s nothing inherently douchey about not eating animals.
For me it’s sort of like hating hippies. I hate vegans like I hate hippies. 😉 I hang out with both regularly. 😉
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### Author:  [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/34 "2009-12-23T18:28:52Z")
As a vegan I can tell you the main reason I don’t eat meat and fish is it’s the most resource wasteful and environmental damaging practice I can easily cut out of my life. If the average person gave up meat it equals 8000 miles driven per year in carbon emmissions alone. This does not take into account the decrease in the massive pollution problems we have in just about every waterway in the US due to livestock runoff or the huge reduction in methane (millions of tons) that would result from not having livestock. Livestock runoff is responsible for the largest portion of the pollution in our countries waterways (almost half). It’s a simple equation really. 1kg of beef requires 45kgs of food for that cow. You really can’t get more inefficient than that. About 80 million acres of corn get harvested every year. Of that humans consume 12%. Livestock consume the rest. If that land were forested again it would have more carbon sink benefit than retro fitting every coal burning power plant to clean coal. Soybeans? Same amount of acres. 30 million tons a year goes to livestock. It’s senseless to have other animals process our energy for us. That’s all they are doing.
As for health? I’ve been vegan since I was 17. I’m 34 now. In that time I’ve been a sponsored rock climber, porter, climbed mountains all over the world, work out regularly, am in great health and am never sick. There is nothing in a balanced vegtable diet that isn’t in meat that you need. I have no clue how some of the vegans that posters have mentioned are sickly. If they are, then they aren’t eating intelligently. And I don’t go to special places to get my food. Your local chain super market has everything you need.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/35 "2009-12-23T18:41:35Z")
> [@capeo](#):
>
> As for health? I’ve been vegan since I was 17. I’m 34 now. In that time I’ve been a sponsored rock climber, porter, climbed mountains all over the world, work out regularly, am in great health and am never sick. There is nothing in a balanced vegtable diet that isn’t in meat that you need. I have no clue how some of the vegans that posters have mentioned are sickly. If they are, then they aren’t eating intelligently. And I don’t go to special places to get my food. Your local chain super market has everything you need.
Out of curiosity, do you take supplements? I have heard that vegans must be careful to get enough calcium, iron and especially B12. The only vegan I discussed it with said “I don’t worry about things like that” which is kind of unresponsive.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/36 "2009-12-23T19:01:03Z")
> [@capeo](#):
>
> As a vegan I can tell you the main reason I don’t eat meat and fish is it’s the most resource wasteful and environmental damaging practice I can easily cut out of my life. If the average person gave up meat it equals 8000 miles driven per year in carbon emmissions alone. This does not take into account the decrease in the massive pollution problems we have in just about every waterway in the US due to livestock runoff or the huge reduction in methane (millions of tons) that would result from not having livestock. Livestock runoff is responsible for the largest portion of the pollution in our countries waterways (almost half). It’s a simple equation really. 1kg of beef requires 45kgs of food for that cow. You really can’t get more inefficient than that. About 80 million acres of corn get harvested every year. Of that humans consume 12%. Livestock consume the rest. If that land were forested again it would have more carbon sink benefit than retro fitting every coal burning power plant to clean coal. Soybeans? Same amount of acres. 30 million tons a year goes to livestock. It’s senseless to have other animals process our energy for us. That’s all they are doing.
This is the only argument I have ever found truly compelling. I just love steak.
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### Author:  [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/37 "2009-12-23T19:07:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Out of curiosity, do you take supplements? I have heard that vegans must be careful to get enough calcium, iron and especially B12. The only vegan I discussed it with said “I don’t worry about things like that” which is kind of unresponsive.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
No, no vitamins or supplements. 3/4 of a cup of collard greens or 4 ounces of tofu has more calcium than a cup of cow’s milk. Broccoli, spinach, collards, soybeans, kale, bok choy, okra, etc. all have more calcium in them than cow’s milk. In the case of iron? 100 calories of spinach contains the same amount of iron as 1700 calories of beef. Iron is abundant in almost every vegetable and most have far more iron than animal meat. To give you an idea, beef is about equal to chick peas in iron/mg. All vegetables are non-heme iron though so it requires a diet richer in iron than a meat eater to maintain good iron stores. This isn’t an issue though because a vegan diet is naturally far higher in iron than your average meat eater’s. I get my B12 primarily from nutritional yeast. It’s awesome sprinkled on pasta and vegetables. It tastes like cheese essentially. Also, most soy milks are fortified with it, as well as some cereals.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/38 "2009-12-23T20:03:29Z")
> [@mswas](#):
>
> This is the only argument I have ever found truly compelling.
I agree that the resource argument is the most compelling argument for being a vegetarian or vegan. ‘Animals shouldn’t have to suffer/be killed’ is more of an appeal to emotion, although it’s easy to see why people gravitate to it - it’s more far more tangible than evaluations of the use of resources.
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### Author:  [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/39 "2009-12-23T20:14:34Z")
no soy, no gluten, and not that its vegan but no dairy either.
I would seriously die on a vegan diet.
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### Author:  [@gloriye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gloriye)
#### Post date: [December 23, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegans-should-just-starve-to-death/522264/40 "2009-12-23T20:18:34Z")
Why not just let people eat what they want to? Seriously, I’m constantly amazed by the amount of invective against people who prefer vegetarian/vegan diets. I mean, if someone told me they only eat foods that start with the letter “P”, I’d think that was odd, but it wouldn’t upset me at all, it’s their choice to make.
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