# Vegas casino sues couple for cheating at craps **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 4, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625 "2011-10-04T22:38:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/1 "2011-10-04T22:38:09Z")
[Link to article.](http://travel.usatoday.com/destinations/dispatches/post/2011/10/wynn-las-vegas-sues-700000-craps-winners/550230/1?csp=hf) This couple (with help from others) allegedly cheated at the crap table to the tune of $700,000. Supposedly they accomplished this by ‘sliding’ the dice, which involves holding the dice with the winning numbers face up, then sliding them - rather than rolling them - against the far wall. WTF??? I can’t imagine how on earth someone could a) do this, and b) pull it off, repeatedly, in a _Las Vegas Casino_. This sounds like a trick your little brother would try at the family Monopoly tournament. And yeah, he’d get busted. mmm ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/2 "2011-10-04T22:44:23Z")
Short of being amazingly dextrous and rolling specific numbers on command I’m not sure how you could do this. As the comentator in the linked article says: > [@](#): > > “dice sliding is so obvious that it is easy to stop. It makes no sense they could get away with that much money unless they had inside help.” ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/3 "2011-10-04T22:59:39Z")
Yeah, I don’t get how you could do it without being caught very early. I’ve known plenty of people who believe that they can manage to beat the odds by dice setting and precision shooting but I’ve never been convinced that any difference is statistically relevant and would be enough to beat the variance. I suppose a flat throw and no rotation off the bounce could work, but I don’t see how you get that flat a bounce considering the design of the end wall. ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/4 "2011-10-05T00:52:45Z")
And why couldn’t they have been doing it when I was betting the pass line at the craps table? I’m also confused about the part of the article that mentions that the person sliding the dice was not betting, but I was under the impression that you had to be betting to get the dice. ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/5 "2011-10-05T02:11:55Z")
Aside from the unlikelihood of going undetected, I don’t see anyone mastering (or even becoming semi-adept at) this technique. I don’t care how much you practice. mmm ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/6 "2011-10-05T02:46:13Z")
> [@dzeiger](#): > > I’m also confused about the part of the article that mentions that the person sliding the dice was not betting, but I was under the impression that you had to be betting to get the dice. You do. My guess is they weren’t betting the big money. What I wonder is, it’s the casino’s job to make sure the rules are followed. Provided they were throwing the dice and hitting the back wall, how did they cheat? Seems to me that is all that is needed for a legal throw. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/7 "2011-10-05T02:53:55Z")
You can bet Wynn absolutely recognized this scam pretty much immediately, but at that point it becomes a guaranteed win for the casino. If the scammers are good enough to win, Wynn security detains them and gaming control prevents any payout. If the scammers lose, Wynn pretends nothing happened and keeps their money. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/8 "2011-10-05T02:55:32Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > You do. My guess is they weren’t betting the big money. > > What I wonder is, it’s the casino’s job to make sure the rules are followed. Provided they were throwing the dice and hitting the back wall, how did they cheat? Seems to me that is all that is needed for a legal throw. It’s impossible to perform this scam while having the dice hit the back wall. There angled grooves in the wall which will turn the dice if they strike it. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/9 "2011-10-05T03:10:32Z")
[A slightly better article on how it may have happened](http://www.lvrj.com/business/couple-accused-of-dice-sliding-at-wynn-las-vegas-130900938.html). ---
**Author:** ![Ponch8](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponch8/32/9883_2.png) [@Ponch8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponch8)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/10 "2011-10-05T03:24:40Z")
It seems that if a casino is dumb enough not to notice something like this right away, they only have themselves to blame for losing all that money. Hopefully the case will be dismissed. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/11 "2011-10-05T03:49:11Z")
> [@Ponch8](#): > > It seems that if a casino is dumb enough not to notice something like this right away, they only have themselves to blame for losing all that money. Hopefully the case will be dismissed. You are LITERALLY blaming the victim with this post. Fascinating! ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/12 "2011-10-05T06:15:45Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > It’s impossible to perform this scam while having the dice hit the back wall. There angled grooves in the wall which will turn the dice if they strike it. What I’ve heard for “Rhythm Rolling” is you try to hit the little flat area right off the table before the angled grooves start (granted I think that’s a different technique of dubious efficacy). But even then, how does “not hitting the back wall” amount to a crime instead of just a first class ticket off the property? ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/13 "2011-10-05T06:24:07Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > [A slightly better article on how it may have happened](http://www.lvrj.com/business/couple-accused-of-dice-sliding-at-wynn-las-vegas-130900938.html). So what I get from that is that the accomplice bet on boxcars, and the slider may have only slid one dice to get a 6, with the other hitting the back wall for a random result. That’s probably not going to get called a no-roll, as long as it’s not happening every time. And since one is still random, the person betting isn’t going to win every time, just enough that it gets pushed into positive value. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/14 "2011-10-05T06:29:20Z")
> [@Cyberhwk](#): > > What I’ve heard for “Rhythm Rolling” is you try to hit the little flat area right off the table before the angled grooves start (granted I think that’s a different technique of dubious efficacy). But even then, how does “not hitting the back wall” amount to a crime instead of just a first class ticket off the property? Not hitting the back wall isn’t the crime, it’s the attempt to cheat that is the crime. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/15 "2011-10-05T07:39:36Z")
Interesting story. I do not find it odd that the couple were able to get away with it for a while, especially since “The two are suspected of working with several unidentified customers who placed bets or distracted dealers.” Remember that the boxman has only a tiny fraction of a second in which to decide whether tocall “No Dice!” He does not want to make this call when the dice have already come to a rest and are visible. That people can perfect tricks like dice sliding is quite believable to me. I’ve seen strange tricks myself, and am in fact surprised such tricks aren’t more of a problem for casinos. It might be a fun exercise to figure out what betting system would be best for the cheaters. Betting boxcars or other hard-way numbers is the obvious answer, but winning those bets frequently might attract suspicion so the low-vigorish Pass/Come or Do-Not might make more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/16 "2011-10-05T12:47:09Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Not hitting the back wall isn’t the crime, it’s the attempt to cheat that is the crime. Cheating in a casino isn’t a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/17 "2011-10-05T13:16:41Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > You are LITERALLY blaming the victim with this post. Fascinating! What victims ? A casino’s business plan as a whole can be summed up as “Fleece customers. Exploit people’s weaknesses and/or failure at statistics. Go to the bank”. So they got fleeced back\*. It’s all in the game. - and that’s assuming we can take the casino’s allegations at face value and they’re not just pissy that some people won a little too big. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/18 "2011-10-05T13:25:27Z")
[http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/](http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/)Not only is it illegal, it’s a felony. The section relevant to cheating is Nevada Revised Statute 465.070 ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/19 "2011-10-05T13:29:14Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > What victims ? A casino’s business plan as a whole can be summed up as “Fleece customers. Exploit people’s weaknesses and/or failure at statistics. Go to the bank”. So they got fleeced back\*. It’s all in the game. > > - and that’s assuming we can take the casino’s allegations at face value and they’re not just pissy that some people won a little too big. So your position is that stealing from a business is okay, as long as you don’t agree with the business model? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/20 "2011-10-05T14:17:00Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > [http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/](http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Laws/Nevada/)Not only is it illegal, it’s a felony. The section relevant to cheating is Nevada Revised Statute 465.070 Looks like your right. Sorry Still, if its its illegal, then one wonders why the Casino didn’t press charges. And is dice sliding actually against the rules? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625.md?page=2)