# Vegas casino sues couple for cheating at craps **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [October 4, 2011, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625 "2011-10-04T22:38:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/21 "2011-10-05T14:31:40Z")
Relevant section of 465.070: > [@](#): > > 1. To manipulate, with the intent to cheat, any component of a gaming device in a manner contrary to the designed and normal operational purpose for the component, including, but not limited to, varying the pull of the handle of a slot machine, with knowledge that the manipulation affects the outcome of the game or with knowledge of any event that affects the outcome of the game. ---
**Author:** ![Duke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Duke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/22 "2011-10-05T14:34:17Z")
Looks like 465.070 is due for an update…the “rhythm boys” slot machine technique hasn’t been usable since the 50’s. Of course, it’s in the interest of the casinos that suckers think it still works. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/23 "2011-10-05T14:45:21Z")
I have see Craps tables designed with a small ridge at the center of the table that makes the dice start to tumble on a “slide” roll. If it is a problem, I don’t understand why all casinos engineer a “slide roll” proof table. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/24 "2011-10-05T15:37:10Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Still, if its its illegal, then one wonders why the Casino didn’t press charges. Uh, read the article. They were both arrested for the crime. The casino is also filing a civil suit. Casinos care about money, not whether people go to jail or not, so the civil suit is obviously going to be most important to them. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/25 "2011-10-05T15:37:21Z")
Never mind ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/26 "2011-10-05T15:53:29Z")
Damn casino wouldn’t allow me to use my lucky dice I brought from home, either. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/27 "2011-10-05T16:42:35Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > So your position is that stealing from a business is okay, as long as you don’t agree with the business model? Actually, yes. I don’t see any compelling reason to be honest towards a person or organization that is quite open about its not being honest. IOW, I’m not crying when the thief gets took. That doesn’t mean I’m about to set out righting wrongs and conning crooks, but I appreciate the irony involved. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Dead\_Cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Cat)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/28 "2011-10-05T17:40:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Actually, yes. I don’t see any compelling reason to be honest towards a person or organization that is quite open about its not being honest. IOW, I’m not crying when the thief gets took. > That doesn’t mean I’m about to set out righting wrongs and conning crooks, but I appreciate the irony involved. How is a casino dishonest? The odds for all the games are freely available, most casinos will teach you the rules (and they will all tell you if you try to break them!), no-one is compelled to play. Well, unless you think all bars should be outlawed because of alcoholics. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/29 "2011-10-06T02:11:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Damn casino wouldn’t allow me to use my lucky dice I brought from home, either. Nor mine that I erased all the pips from. But it’s OK, because I memorized where they are. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/30 "2011-10-06T02:15:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Actually, yes. I don’t see any compelling reason to be honest towards a person or organization that is quite open about its not being honest. IOW, I’m not crying when the thief gets took. > That doesn’t mean I’m about to set out righting wrongs and conning crooks, but I appreciate the irony involved. You and I strongly disagree on this subject. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/31 "2011-10-06T02:38:26Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > You and I strongly disagree on this subject. Maybe you could settle your differences over a nice friendly game of… oh, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/32 "2011-10-06T03:02:43Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Maybe you could settle your differences over a nice friendly game of… oh, never mind. But I’m no good at Oh Never Mind! ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/33 "2011-10-06T04:26:20Z")
I dunno. Even if the couple is guilty (and until someone provides some solid evidence, I reserve judgment), I really think suing them is a stupid, stupid move. A lawsuit is an expensive proposition, and they’re going to have to convince a jury not only that this one die didn’t act right in the video, but it happened enough times to make a significant difference. Not to mention the incredible amount of badwill this is _already_ generating, and for a business that relies very heavily on word of mouth and repeat customers. You took a beating for one night. Take a photo of the lucky bastards, give some remedial training to your incompetent clods, and get on with your life. You’ll make it all back in time, which is a lot better than dropping a nuclear bomb on your customer base with some stupid lawsuit. Geez. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/34 "2011-10-06T04:35:17Z")
They have to prove in court that such a thing is possible and that they could do it. I am not so sure the casino can win. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/35 "2011-10-06T04:41:08Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They have to prove in court that such a thing is possible and that they could do it. I am not so sure the casino can win. I think it depends on whether the cheaters end up being found guilty in criminal court. If a jury doesn’t think there’s enough evidence to prove they cheated, that’ll be the end of it. I don’t think suing them is a stupid move, though, as DKW says. The Wynn stands to lose a lot more than 700,000 if they get the reputation for being an easy target. The hyper-aggressive response is probably more about protecting their reputation than recovering that particular loss. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/36 "2011-10-06T07:04:11Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I don’t think suing them is a stupid move, though, as DKW says. The Wynn stands to lose a lot more than 700,000 if they get the reputation for being an easy target. The hyper-aggressive response is probably more about protecting their reputation than recovering that particular loss. Are you kidding? They’re missing a huge marketing opportunity here. Show these folks as big winners, advertise that only at the Wynn can smart, skilled players win big money, and install slide-proof tables so that dice-sliding can’t be done. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/37 "2011-10-06T12:45:46Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I think it depends on whether the cheaters end up being found guilty in criminal court. If a jury doesn’t think there’s enough evidence to prove they cheated, that’ll be the end of it. > > I don’t think suing them is a stupid move, though, as DKW says. The Wynn stands to lose a lot more than 700,000 if they get the reputation for being an easy target. The hyper-aggressive response is probably more about protecting their reputation than recovering that particular loss. Apparently they are not being charged with a crime, not yet at least, according to the story linked to in post #9. Also, the original OP link does not say they are charged with a crime, though it’s hard to see how they could have been arrested without charge. Possibly the prosecutor decided there was insufficient evidence, or just hasn’t had enough time yet to review the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/38 "2011-10-06T13:24:35Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > I think it depends on whether the cheaters end up being found guilty in criminal court. If a jury doesn’t think there’s enough evidence to prove they cheated, that’ll be the end of it. Maybe not. To get a criminal conviction you need IIRC proof ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’, which is a pretty high hurdle – the idea is if we’re locking someone up, we need to be pretty sure. On the other hand, to win in a civil lawsuit, you only need to be more likely to be right than not – the idea is that there’s a disputed pile of money sitting in between the two parties, and the court needs to decide who to give it to. So it’s easier to win the casino lawsuit than to get a criminal conviction. [If you need an example, see O.J. Simpson’s two trials) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/39 "2011-10-06T14:39:20Z")
I heard that counting cards can help you win at Blackjack. Well, when I picked up the deck and started counting, the dealer called security. Damn casinos! ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625/40 "2011-10-06T15:06:35Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > I heard that counting cards can help you win at Blackjack. Well, when I picked up the deck and started counting, the dealer called security. Damn casinos! Security is fine. The casino can see you off the premises for no reason other than they don’t like your hair. It’s when the police get involved that I start having a little trouble. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegas-casino-sues-couple-for-cheating-at-craps/598625.md?page=3)