# Vegetarianism question **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 2, 2001, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621 "2001-08-02T07:30:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2001, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/81 "2001-08-13T23:22:08Z")
Perhaps if they touted “vegetarian foods” or something. And they certainly were fried in 100% vegetable oil. And I really don’t recall reading… Ahh, yes, I think they did have the ambiguous “flavoring” on the ingredients list, now that I think about it. Never mentioned beef flavoring, though. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/82 "2001-08-14T05:47:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > **You also have to eat a LOT of vegetables to get enough protein. Cecil said so:** No, Cecil said you have to eat a lot of vegetables to get as much protein as you’d get by eating meat. That’s not the same thing at all. Apart from the _very_ poor and the anorexic, there are very few cases of protein deficiency in the first world. Meat eaters are probably more at risk of getting too much protein than vegetarians are of getting too little. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/83 "2001-08-14T19:14:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > **No, Cecil said you have to eat a lot of vegetables to get as much protein as you’d get by eating meat. That’s not the same thing at all.** He said > [@](#): > > True herbivores have to spend much of the day scrounging for snacks just to keep their strength up. Looks to me like he said you have to eat a lot of vegetables to get enough protein. Looks to me like you don’t understand what he said. > [@](#): > > **Apart from the _very_ poor and the anorexic, there are very few cases of protein deficiency in the first world.** Because the first-world diet is meat-centered! > [@](#): > > **Meat eaters are probably more at risk of getting too much protein than vegetarians are of getting too little.** Which is why I said that an ideal diet is only one-quarter meat, most of it white. ---
**Author:** ![NYR407](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@NYR407](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYR407)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/84 "2001-08-14T20:14:15Z")
WOW!!! I saw the topic on GD and thought it would be interesting to see what was being said. I was mostly looking for the reason people became vegatarians or vegans. While we can all agree that there are different degrees of vegatarians (for there own personal reasons). I seem to have a problem with people who do not like the way the animals are treated. Have you ever read about the migrant farmworkers? Human beings are being treaty as if they were animals. I am not an expert on the subject but unless you grow your own food you are contributing to the deprivation of human life (low wages, horrible working conditions, no sick or vacation time etc…) Sounds like these vegartarians have a double standard to me. Are you willing to pay $20 for an apple? If not, get off your high horse and eat a bacon double cheeseburger. And do not try to agrue that “they can better themselves” or “Immigration is the problem”. Leave them for another GD. Let’s face it folks, no matter what you do in life someone or thing will be adversely affected by it. But that is another topic. BTW, I have no problem with most vegartaians only ones that try to tell me what I am doing is wrong. Health reasons, taste issues etc. Fine with me. Enjoy. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2001, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/85 "2001-08-14T20:48:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\*Looks to me like he said you have to eat a lot of vegetables to get enough protein. Looks to me like you don’t understand what he said. \*\* Looks to me like you don’t, either. Cecil said you have to eat a lot of _stems and leaves_ to get enough protein. Let’s see his quote again: > [@](#): > > Sure, soybeans and other products of modern agriculture are pretty nutritious. But in the wild, much of the plant menu consists of leaves and stems, which are low in food value. True herbivores have to spend much of the day scrounging for snacks just to keep their strength up. It would take a lot of stems and leaves to keep a person going, but vegetarians do not survive entirely on stems and leaves. Even a vegetarian “in the wild” could gather nuts or dig for roots, something people have been doing for millions of years. Certainly for many people in many parts of the world the easiest and best way to get protein is by eating meat. But at least here in the first world, where you can easily buy any food product you like, it is not hard at all to maintain a healthy vegetarian diet. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/86 "2001-08-15T05:22:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > \*\*He said > > > [@](#): > > > > True herbivores have to spend much of the day scrounging for snacks just to keep their strength up. > > Looks to me like he said you have to eat a lot of vegetables to get enough protein. Looks to me like you don’t understand what he said.\*\* Your selective quoting is starting to get on my nerves. The sentence which preceded that was: > [@](#): > > Sure, soybeans and other products of modern agriculture are pretty nutritious. But in the wild, much of the plant menu consists of leaves and stems, which are low in food value. In other words, _animals that live on the above_ have to scrounge for snacks. He is not referring to modern human beings on a vegetarian diet. > [@](#): > > \*\*Apart from the _very_ poor and the anorexic, there are very few cases of protein deficiency in the first world. Because the first-world diet is meat-centered! \*\* [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: When I said that there are very few cases apart from the very poor and anorexic, I didn’t mean that there are very few cases apart from the very poor, anorexic, and vegetarian. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/87 "2001-08-15T07:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NYR407 \* > Are you willing to pay $20 for an apple? If not, get off your high horse and eat a bacon double cheeseburger. And this helping the migrant worker … how? ---
**Author:** ![NYR407](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@NYR407](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYR407)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/88 "2001-08-15T14:59:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by NYR407 \* > > Are you willing to pay $20 for an apple? If not, get off your high horse and eat a bacon double cheeseburger. > > And this helping the migrant worker … how? \*\* I never said this was going to help the migrant worker. I don’t want to get into an economy/america looks the other way debate…but what I meant was this: If vegatarians (the ones who claim to be so because of the treatment of animals), aren’t willing to fight for better living standards for these migrant workers than they should become carnivours again (because their reasoning is hypocritical). My $20 apple is based on the higher cost of produce when you factor in the higher wages, health benefits, vacation/sick time etc. Don’t expect the farmer to bite the bullet and eat the losses(pun intended). Of course $20 may be a little exaggerated. We all try not to think of who picks the fruits and veggies, sews our clothes, or cleans our dishes in restaurants. The fact is that we need these people but we do not want to pay them fairly because that will result in higher costs to us. Which in turn will raise the cost of living and result in the lower wage earners to need to make even more money. Because their raise will have been canceled out by the cost of living increase. Its a vicious cycle. But I am not an economist so my theory is probably flawed. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/89 "2001-08-15T19:11:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NYR407 \* > > If vegatarians (the ones who claim to be so because of the treatment of animals), aren’t willing to fight for better living standards for these migrant workers than they should become carnivours again (because their reasoning is hypocritical). So you are qualified to dictate _what_ vegetarians should do to aleviate their “hypocrisy”? And eating a cheeseburger will do this? 😕 > [@](#): > > My $20 apple is based on the higher cost of produce when you factor in the higher wages, health benefits, vacation/sick time etc. Don’t expect the farmer to bite the bullet and eat the losses(pun intended). Of course $20 may be a little exaggerated. And a vegetarian giving up vegetarianism will change all of these things…how? > [@](#): > > The fact is that we need these people but we do not want to pay them fairly because that will result in higher costs to us. Uh huh. And a vegetarian going back to meat-eating changes any of this…how? > [@](#): > > Which in turn will raise the cost of living and result in the lower wage earners to need to make even more money. Because their raise will have been canceled out by the cost of living increase. Its a vicious cycle. But I am not an economist so my theory is probably flawed. And all of this relates to vegetarians…how? ---
**Author:** ![NYR407](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@NYR407](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYR407)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/90 "2001-08-15T19:54:34Z")
Yosemitebabe, you seem to be taking my points piece by piece and not as a whole. Again, my point was only with vegs who claim their reasoning is for the treatment of animals. All other reasons (unless there are ones I can think of) I don’t have a problem with. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yosemitebabe \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by NYR407 \* > > > > If vegatarians (the ones who claim to be so because of the treatment of animals), aren’t willing to fight for better living standards for these migrant workers than they should become carnivours again (because their reasoning is hypocritical). > > So you are qualified to dictate _what_ vegetarians should do to aleviate their “hypocrisy”? And eating a cheeseburger will do this? 😕 > > Never said I was “qualiifed” as you so question. I merely stated that they are hypocrits. They are merely trying to be perceived as better than others by not eating meat. Using the reason that its because of the treatment of animals. Yet they do not care for their fellow humans. Eating the “Bacon Double Cheesebuger” will aleviate their hypocrisy by alowing them to no longer live a lie. Don’t forget I did give them the option to fight for human rights as well. If so, good for them. > > > [@](#): > > > > My $20 apple is based on the higher cost of produce when you factor in the higher wages, health benefits, vacation/sick time etc. Don’t expect the farmer to bite the bullet and eat the losses(pun intended). Of course $20 may be a little exaggerated. > > And a vegetarian giving up vegetarianism will change all of these things…how? > > Never said it would. You like to use my quotes out of context. I was merely making a point as to why the migrant workers will most likely never be treated fairly. This was an extention of my original point. > > > [@](#): > > > > The fact is that we need these people but we do not want to pay them fairly because that will result in higher costs to us. > > Uh huh. And a vegetarian going back to meat-eating changes any of this…how? > > See all points above. > > > [@](#): > > > > Which in turn will raise the cost of living and result in the lower wage earners to need to make even more money. Because their raise will have been canceled out by the cost of living increase. Its a vicious cycle. But I am not an economist so my theory is probably flawed. > > And all of this relates to vegetarians…how? \*\* Again, see above. Please try to follow my train of thought. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2001, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/91 "2001-08-15T20:24:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NYR407 \* > **Again, my point was only with vegs who claim their reasoning is for the treatment of animals. All other reasons (unless there are ones I can think of) I don’t have a problem with.** I hope you do not labor for many hours under the misimpression that any of us vegetarians give a fuck whether or not you approve of our reasons. If you do, consider yourself disabused of that notion. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NYR407 \* > If vegatarians (the ones who claim to be so because of the treatment of animals), aren’t willing to fight for better living standards for these migrant workers than they should become carnivours again (because their reasoning is hypocritical). The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other, however desperately you wish to tie them together. Did it ever occur to you that some vegetarians actually grow their very own food? Did it also ever occur to you that some people are very conscientious about where they buy there produce? [QUOTE}I merely stated that they are hypocrits. They are merely trying to be perceived as better than others by not eating meat.[/QUOTE] This has been covered in other threads with people who can spell and reason a lot better than you can. Unless your last name is Kreskin or Geller, please do not make ham-handed attempts to attribute motives to strangers–motives which are easily falsified. > [@](#): > > Using the reason that its because of the treatment of animals. Yet they do not care for their fellow humans. And you know this how, exactly? Are you one of those “people can only care about one thing to the exclusion of all others” people? You just be, since you’re trying to tie together two totally disparate topics (e.g., “Well if you’re so concerned with date rape, I guess you don’t care about missing children!”) > [@](#): > > Eating the “Bacon Double Cheesebuger” will aleviate their hypocrisy by alowing them to no longer live a lie. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Please try to follow my train of thought. It derailed several miles ago. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/92 "2001-08-16T00:33:36Z")
**RE: McDonald’s french fries** As Muffin already noted, Mickey D’s is now posting more information about their ingredients, such as the fact that a “natural flavoring” comes from a “beef source”. That’s all well and good, truth-in-advertising, full-disclosure, blah blah blah. Really, I agree people should be able to know what’s in the food they’re gonna eat. But this really gets me. From the Wall Street Journal Online [The Wall Street Journal - Breaking News, Business, Financial & Economic News, World News and Video](http://public.wsj.com/sn/y/SB99771975868736972.html) > [@](#): > > On May 1 two Hindus who don’t eat meat and one non-Hindu vegetarian filed suit against the fast-food giant in Seattle. The lawsuit sought an injunction against the use of beef tallow, which is made from the fat of cattle. So now some vegetarians are suing McDonald’s over the ingredients they use in their cooking? Shouldn’t Mickey D’s be able to cook fries in whatever they want? Shouldn’t they be able to make “fries” out of 100% ground beef, instead of potatoes, if they want? It’d be gross, but still. 🙂 I think this is the “slippery slope” that Anthracite pointed out in this thread [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=74968&pagenumber=5](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=74968&pagenumber=5) What’s next, an injuction prohibiting McDonald’s from using beef in their _hamburgers_? Do any of our “legal beagles” have any thoughts about how this section of the lawsuit is likely to succeed? It’d place it somewhere between slim and none, and slim left town. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/93 "2001-08-16T00:41:12Z")
More selective quoting. You guys amaze me. Did you completely miss this part? > [@](#): > > The company had announced in 1990 that its restaurants would no longer use beef fat in cooking french fries and that only pure vegetable oil would be used, leading vegetarians to assume that the fries were meat free. It should be obvious to _anyone with 2% of their brain cells working_ that the suit isn’t over McDonald’s using animal products, but over them doing so in foods their customers were led to believe were animal product-free. ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/94 "2001-08-16T01:23:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ruadh \* > \*\*More selective quoting. You guys amaze me. Did you completely miss this part? > > > [@](#): > > > > The company had announced in 1990 that its restaurants would no longer use beef fat in cooking french fries and that only pure vegetable oil would be used, leading vegetarians to assume that the fries were meat free. > > It should be obvious to _anyone with 2% of their brain cells working_ that the suit isn’t over McDonald’s using animal products, but over them doing so in foods their customers were led to believe were animal product-free. \*\* Yes, but the injuction? McDonald’s may have misrepresented things, which they have now corrected. But the plaintiff’s lawyer said, and I can’t find the quote online, I tried, that they were proceeding with the rest of the lawsuit. Where is the basis in law, anywhere, that dictates french fries have to be cooked to please vegetarians, vegans, or Hindus for that matter? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2001, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/95 "2001-08-16T04:18:38Z")
Injunction? Don’t make me laugh. McD’s has for several months stopped claiming 100% vegetable oil, and instead is listing hydrogenated vegetable oil and beef sourced flavour. As far as the fries go, they are now playing sraight, so there is no reason for an injunction. > [@](#): > > McDonald’s USA Ingredient List > > [French Fries:](http://www.mcdonalds.com/countries/usa/food/ingredient_list/sandwiches/index.html) > > Potatoes, partially hydrogenated soybean oil, natural flavor (beef source), dextrose, sodium acid pyrophosphate (to preserve natural color). Cooked in partially hydrogenated vegetable oils, (may contain partially hydrogenated soybean oil and/or partially hydrogenated corn oil and/or partially hydrogenated canola oil and/or cottonseed oil and/or sunflower oil and/or corn oil). TBHQ and citric acid added to help preserve freshness. Dimethylpolysiloxane added as an anti-foaming agent. The main action will look at things like the difference between innocent misrepresentation and misrepesentation (think back to Dangerosa’s point that when McD’s made the oil change it was a healthy thing, but then think that after learning of Hindus and veggies when opening McD’s in India, and knowing of the somewhat recent push toward labelling in the USA, they still did not come clean in the USA). It will also look at negligence (is there a duty of care owed to veggies at a meat house, and if there is, did they fail in their duty by claiming 100% vegetable oil?) It will also look at fluffery in advertising. That’s going to be the interesting part, for the law has let advertisers hype things up quite a bit without holding them to their promises. Remember the Big Mac jingle ("Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, on a sesame seed bun)? It leaves out salt and pepper, whatever the bun was made of, whether or not there is renet in the cheese, and what the secret is to the special sauce. Should we sue because of this jingle? Let’s face it, 100% does not mean much when it comes to food, for just about everything has something else in it (e.g. bug parts – lots and lots of bug parts). As much as I would like to see the food industry have to make complete ingredient lists available, and not be permitted to make misleading statements (I personally believe that I was misled by McD’s), I really doubt that this case will go very far. ---
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2001, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/96 "2001-08-19T12:35:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > > > Before anyone starts with deconstruction of my position, or ridicule, or any GD-ish contributions, please note my deliberate use of the word “unnecessary.” \*\* > > > > Does this mean that if you were satisfied, in a given instance, that the meat was not produced through unnecessary suffering, that you would eat it? \*\* > > Yep. \*\* Could you explain how that jibes with [this?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1512534#post1512534) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > > > [@](#): > > > > Yes, the accident with the dog is an understandable and regrettable lapse, but the standard of care you must apply to a dog is far less than what you would be expected to apply to an infant. Yes? > > I’m going to get flamed for this, but no, not to me. Are you distinguishing between pets and other animals? ---
**Author:** ![ity2525](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/22d042/32.png) [@ity2525](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ity2525)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2001, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/97 "2001-08-20T01:05:49Z")
> [@](#): > > One of the environmental reasons sometimes given for vegetarianism is that it’s more efficient than carnivory. I think I agree with that. But as someone who worked with migrant peach harvesters as a high schooler (as a summer job), I can’t help but feel sympathy for all the people I depend on to harvest the vegetables and fruits I eat. Does anyone know how much in “human resources” is required to produce/harvest a given caloric quantity of animal versus vegetable product? And how much money individuals in those groups make relative to each other? I have no idea, but I suspect that your average migrant worker in the U.S. makes very little money even in these enlightened times. Back in South Carolina in the seventies we received 25 cents per peck of peaches - not a lot of money on a hot day – and people were trying to raise families on that wage. I suspect that the compensation is pretty much the same today. I think of Juan Valdez down there in Colombia as well, and I realize that both animal and vegetable food production and distribution are globalized systems today and that there’s very little we can do to prevent that from becoming more so in the future. Since my days in the peach fields I’ve always held the attitude that it doesn’t matter much what position I take on the food consumption issue. Sooner or later it all comes down to exploitation of one kind or another. It’s hard to be happy that by some weird chance I did not have to work in that field. In the May 2001 issue of Discover Magazine there’s an interesting article about a guy who advocates consuming only food that is produced within 250 miles of his home. How many of us can say we do that? It takes a lot of effort to be virtuous. Every time I go to the mega-grocery-plex in my neighborhood, I think of myself as a sinner. But we all have to eat something. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2001, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/98 "2001-08-20T02:28:31Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ity2525 \* > In the May 2001 issue of Discover Magazine there’s an interesting article about a guy who advocates consuming only food that is produced within 250 miles of his home._\* That would pretty much limit my meals to wood chips. ---
**Author:** ![ity2525](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/22d042/32.png) [@ity2525](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ity2525)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2001, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/99 "2001-08-20T03:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Muffin_ > That would pretty much limit my meals to wood chips. > > _Originally posted by NYR407_ > Have you ever read about the migrant farmworkers? Human beings are being treated as if they were animals. I am not an expert on the subject but unless you grow your own food you are contributing to the deprivation of human life (low wages, horrible working conditions, no sick or vacation time etc…) Sounds like these vegartarians have a double standard to me. > > Let’s face it folks, no matter what you do in life some one or thing will be adversely affected by it. I totally understand, Muffin. (And sorry, NYR407, about missing your argument, which I restated in my post.) It’s just that I think that the debate should be more about our inability to control our places as individuals within the social economy of food production, not about any one individual choosing the grounds upon which he/she makes an ethical choice. Anybody can isolate a set of grounds for making a choice, but that doesn’t eliminate the reality of the social economy (whatever it is). Vegetarians who focus on personal health and taste issues (to use NYR407’s terms) aren’t claiming that meat eaters are wrong to eat meat. But if you claim that eating meat is wrong (and, hell, perhaps you’re not), you have to prove that eating vegetables isn’t. On the other hand, if we could somehow convert to a pure veggie food economy, perhaps that economy would somehow become more just. It’s hard to perceive the inequities of the food economy in general. But I’ve got to say that I do not understand why anyone would seek to control what Ronald McDonald puts in his food except by not buying it and by telling people what’s in it. Under current U.S. law at least, Ronald has a perfect right to sell anything that won’t kill you on the spot. G’night! ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2001, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621/100 "2001-08-20T12:15:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by IzzyR \* > > > \*\* > > > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > > > > Before anyone starts with deconstruction of my position, or ridicule, or any GD-ish contributions, please note my deliberate use of the word “unnecessary.” \*\* > > > > > > Does this mean that if you were satisfied, in a given instance, that the meat was not produced through unnecessary suffering, that you would eat it? \*\* > > > > Yep. \*\* > > Could you explain how that jibes with [this?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=1512534#post1512534) > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > Yes, the accident with the dog is an understandable and regrettable lapse, but the standard of care you must apply to a dog is far less than what you would be expected to apply to an infant. Yes? > > > > I’m going to get flamed for this, but no, not to me. > > Are you distinguishing between pets and other animals? \*\* I’m distinguishing between animals that I chose to have live in my house and for which I have taken the responsibility to care far; and animals which belong to other people and are intended for eventual human consumption. Things which belong to me and things which don’t. Honestly, I really don’t see the connection between the two quotes–are you insinuating that I should eat my pets? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarianism-question/74621.md?page=6)