# Vegetarians Are Intolerant Jerks \[Moved from BBQ Pit\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967 "2009-08-27T22:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/321 "2009-08-31T23:00:53Z")
It’s really not ironic at all, since I’m only talking about what I expect from a meal I cook for MYSELF. I would not demand _as a guest_ that anyone make that accomodation for me. I would (and have) simply declined to eat at all if there are no meat dishes offered. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/322 "2009-08-31T23:49:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s really not ironic at all, since I’m only talking about what I expect from a meal I cook for MYSELF. I would not demand _as a guest_ that anyone make that accomodation for me. I would (and have) simply declined to eat at all if there are no meat dishes offered. It’s times like this, when I have a slow day at work and the SDMB search function is feeling charitable, that I really love the Dope. Originally posted by **Diogenes the Cynic** in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5843904&postcount=312) thread: > [@](#): > > The host should not have to always clear the menu with finicky, closed-minded guests who can never try anything new. I may not say anything if you refuse to taste my jambalaya that kicks ass but I will silently think you a dick. > > I also think that having to vet the menu with everybody ruins the element of surprise in preparing the meal. The choice we’re left with is to either narrow the menu the normal, rigid eating habits of the Picky Eater or to have to deal with the quiet pushing away of the dish that the Picky Eater refuses to even try a little bit and take a single bite of. > > I want to emphasize again that I never say anything ever when this happens. I have never once tried to badger anyone (except for my five-year old) into tasting anything they didn’t want. I will just silently think that you’re being a child. I await your customary explanation of how it’s different when you do it. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/323 "2009-08-31T23:55:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I can’t make a single dish that will please both vegetarians and omnivores. Lasagna. Cheese pizza with fresh mozzarella. Black bean burritos. None of these would please you? Then YOU are the one with the ridiculous, weird diet, not me. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Obviously different people have different ethical values. That’s a completely irrelevant point. What I’m saying doesn’t make sense is the inconsistency in your OWN ethical values. If YOU think a particular act is unethical, then it doesn’t matter who commits the act, and it doesn’t matter whether THEY think it’s unethical. Do you think rape is unethical? Do you think it’s not unethical unless the person committing the rape ALSO thinks it’s unethical? Oh, why bring RAPE into this? Seriously. I couldn’t kill an animal. I don’t even kill bugs. Therefore, I won’t eat anything I couldn’t kill myself. I don’t think it’s unethical for you to do it, if you feel OK about it, because I recognize that this aversion is particular to me. I don’t even THINK about what you or anyone else does. Maybe that’s your problem-- you are far too concerned about what everyone else thinks of what you do, and that somehow we are finding you ethically wanting. And you put a lot of energy in pointing out what you perceive to be other people’s ethical inconsistencies, while simultaneously and hypocritically accusing THEM of judging YOU. I don’t care about other people’s internal ethical paradigms. I follow my own moral compass and realize that it’s personal to me, thus do not seek to inflict it on others or judge others by it. I think it’s a waste of energy. > [@](#): > > Neither is organic farming of animals. Neither is hunting or fishing. > > What ARE my choices that you know so much about? You only, exclusively eat meat that is organic, or that you killed yourself via hunting and fishing? That means no eating out in restaurants, I presume, no eating at other people’s homes, because that meat could be from factory farms. Yeah, sure… > [@](#): > > I’m not comdemning or judging people. I’m criticizing a _diet_, and yes, having participated in the diet qualifies me to have an opinion on it. Get over yourself. I’ll get over myself the instant after you get over yourself and not one second sooner. Consequently, I think I have plenty of time not to be over myself, so it’s a good deal for me. ---
**Author:** ![geezermom67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c4cdca/32.png) [@geezermom67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/geezermom67)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/324 "2009-09-01T00:00:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s really not ironic at all, since I’m only talking about what I expect from a meal I cook for MYSELF. I would not demand _as a guest_ that anyone make that accomodation for me. I would (and have) simply declined to eat at all if there are no meat dishes offered. Seriously? You would only eat food at a dinner party if there was meat served? Do you require meat in all dishes, or would you just skip eating even traditionally non meat dishes like salads as a protest for not having a main meat course? I like to cook, and enjoy inviting people over for dinner. Most everything I prepare is vegan, but so far, no one has turned down an invite because I don’t provide lots of meat. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/325 "2009-09-01T00:19:22Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s more efficient to eat meat, and most people don’t have a choice about it. > [@geezermom67](#): > > That I would need a cite for…I think that in terms of calories, it is much more efficient to eat grain directly than to process it through a cow or other animal. Do we really get more calories out of beef or other animals than we would if we just ate the grain or used the farmland currently growing animal feed to grow food for humans? I didn’t get back to this in time, and **geezermom67** beat me to the – really very obvious – answer. On the one hand, you take grain (energy) and put it into me. I am an inefficient machine, but I burn the grain wel enough and use it to fuel activities like posting on the Dope. On the other, you take the grain, put it into one inefficient machine (a cow), then disassemble the cow and put the parts into another inefficient machine (me). How on earth can that possibly be more efficient than eating grain? Where does the free energy come from? Also, as as bee pointed out, grain has protein. So do legumes. Both of these can be grown in the ground that now has cows trampling over it. ETA: > [@DtC](#): > > Vegetarianism is a privileged, western affect This is, of course, quite wrong. There’s this place you may have heard of, called India. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/326 "2009-09-01T00:24:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Plus, I happen to know that a lot of them have pretty loose standards what constitutes a vegetarian diet. A lot of them will eat chicken and fish while still calling themselves vegetarians. Really? I’m married to an Indian. My inlaws most certainly do not have “loose standards”. I’m beginning to think that your social circle does not represent a fair cross-section of … well, of any group, really. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/327 "2009-09-01T00:24:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > It’s times like this, when I have a slow day at work and the SDMB search function is feeling charitable, that I really love the Dope. > > Originally posted by **Diogenes the Cynic** in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=5843904&postcount=312) thread: > > I await your customary explanation of how it’s different when you do it. How it’s different when I do what? I don’t see what you think this contradicts about anything I’ve said in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/328 "2009-09-01T00:28:35Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Lasagna. Cheese pizza with fresh mozzarella. Black bean burritos. All of these (and my idea - chili) can be easily made as one meal right up to the point where I separate them into two pans and throw meat in or on one of them. It’s not as much trouble as some might like to think. > [@geezermom67](#): > > I like to cook, and enjoy inviting people over for dinner. Most everything I prepare is vegan, but so far, no one has turned down an invite because I don’t provide lots of meat. You think they’re going out on the patio to smoke, but it’s really to break out the beek jerkey they’ve smuggled along. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/329 "2009-09-01T00:38:38Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > How it’s different when I do what? I don’t see what you think this contradicts about anything I’ve said in this thread. Ooh, outright denial of the contradiction. _\_ I think I’ve got bingo! ---
**Author:** ![Tinkertoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f19dbf/32.png) [@Tinkertoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinkertoy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/330 "2009-09-01T01:04:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Let’s dispense with this meme that vegetarians “can’t” eat meat. Of course they can.They just don’t want to. That doesn’t mean they should have to, but it’s horsehit to say they “can’t.” You absolutely correct I can eat meat what I cannot do is digest meat. I haven’t been able to since infancy long before I knew the difference between meat and Vegetables, so it is not “In my head”. It has been confirmed by more than a dozen doctors over the last 50 years. My brother is allergic to strawberries and does not eat them. The difference is 1. He is not called a picky eater and a baby. 2. He doesn’t have people telling him it’s all in his head. 3. He has never had people try to sneak strawberries into his meals and laugh about it. 4. He has never been told not eating them is a sin against god and he’s going to Hell. 5. My mother did not have to get a court order to make the school stop trying to force feed them to him. ---
**Author:** ![Girl\_From\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Girl\_From\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girl_From_Mars)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/331 "2009-09-01T01:05:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Ooh, outright denial of the contradiction. > > _\_ > > I think I’ve got bingo! You just say Bingo. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/332 "2009-09-01T01:07:06Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Lasagna. Cheese pizza with fresh mozzarella. Black bean burritos. None of these would please you? I would not fimd them satisfying. Eating stuff like that is like drinking non-alcoholic beer. > [@](#): > > Oh, why bring RAPE into this? To make a point about ethical values. > [@](#): > > Seriously. I couldn’t kill an animal. I don’t even kill bugs. Therefore, I won’t eat anything I couldn’t kill myself. I don’t think it’s unethical for you to do it, Once again, this ijs a logical contradiction. Either you think the act is unethical or you don’t. It doesn’t matter what the pesron committing the act thinks about it. > [@](#): > > I don’t even THINK about what you or anyone else does. Maybe that’s your problem-- you are far too concerned about what everyone else thinks of what you do, and that somehow we are finding you ethically wanting. And you put a lot of energy in pointing out what you perceive to be other people’s ethical inconsistencies, while simultaneously and hypocritically accusing THEM of judging YOU. I don’t care about other people’s internal ethical paradigms. I follow my own moral compass and realize that it’s personal to me, thus do not seek to inflict it on others or judge others by it. I think it’s a waste of energy. I don’t care either. I was not the one to bring this point into the discussion. I was just pointing out that the veggies’ _response_ to the point has not been especially logical. What I really think is not that you’re judging people as unethical for eating meat, but that you don’t really feel all that strongly about the ethics in the first place. > [@](#): > > You only, exclusively eat meat that is organic, or that you killed yourself via hunting and fishing? Sometimes restaurants can’t be avoided, but I really do only buy organic meat,a nd I hardly ever go out. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/333 "2009-09-01T01:08:07Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Ooh, outright denial of the contradiction. > > _\_ > > I think I’ve got bingo! I honestly have no idea what contradiction you’re talking about. If you want me to respond, please be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Girl\_From\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3da27b/32.png) [@Girl\_From\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Girl_From_Mars)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/334 "2009-09-01T01:19:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You think they’re commiting unethical acts. > But you DO think that anyone who eats meat without being willing to kill it is behaving unethically? I think I’d need to know more about why they feel this is not a contradiction before I would judge their actions. For me, there are a number of factors involved, all of which combine to create, as \*\*Rubystreak \*\*has mentioned, my own personal moral compass. I can’t expect everyone to have the exact same combination, so it would be hard to judge them the same. For example, Boy from Mars is a meat eater, and yet he’s watched programmes on TV where someone kills an animal they have raised , and we’ve discussed how neither of us could do that. And yet, he eats meat. I think this is based on several factors. He’s Italian, and some of what he eats is based on strong cultural connections to a homeland which he has pretty much left behind. He loves meat, and I suspect rarely thinks about where it has actually come from. I think this would be fairly common. But for someone who was identical in beliefs to me, and who had thought it through, and read about the issue as much - and still ate meat? Yeah, I guess I would wonder how they rationalised this to themselves. That’s not to say that i believe that of every meat eater. And as \*\*Rubystreak \*\*also said, most of us don’t spend our time worrying that much about why other people make those choices - it’s hard enough deciding how I feel about the issue and trying to live to those beliefs without getting strung up what other people do. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/335 "2009-09-01T01:35:41Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Grain doesn’t have any protein or fat in it, no matter how much you eat. That’s why they don’t try to get oil from, say, corn. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/336 "2009-09-01T01:39:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I would not fimd them satisfying. Eating stuff like that is like drinking non-alcoholic beer. Awfully temperamental, aren’t you? It’s all in your head. > [@](#): > > Once again, this ijs a logical contradiction. Either you think the act is unethical or you don’t. Observant Jews think it’s unethical for them to eat pork, but they don’t care if you eat it. Why? Because they have separate ethics for themselves and other people. If you can wrap your head around this concept, then you can understand how I can think something is wrong for me and not for you. Would I prefer if you agreed with me and adopted my lifestyle? Sure, but if you don’t, I don’t care much either way. It’s not important to me what you do. > [@](#): > > What I really think is not that you’re judging people as unethical for eating meat, but that you don’t really feel all that strongly about the ethics in the first place. I feel very strongly about my own behavior, and feel very little about everyone else’s. You can try to tell me what I feel, but you’d be totally wrong, and very presumptuous. > [@](#): > > Sometimes restaurants can’t be avoided, but I really do only buy organic meat,a nd I hardly ever go out. So you’re not morally consistent either. Good. I’m relieved to find that you’re not perfect after all. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/337 "2009-09-01T01:42:02Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Grain doesn’t have any protein or fat in it, no matter how much you eat. Given that wheat is about 12% protein and 2% fat, I’d have to say you’re a bit off. Best to stop insisting reality conform to your biases, **Dio**. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/338 "2009-09-01T01:46:06Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Given that wheat is about 12% protein and 2% fat, I’d have to say you’re a bit off. > > Best to stop insisting reality conform to your biases, **Dio**. Beat me to it. From the Wikipedia entry on wheat: > [@](#): > > 100 grams of hard red winter wheat contain about 12.6 grams of protein, 1.5 grams of total fat, 71 grams of carbohydrate (by difference), 12.2 grams of dietary fiber, and 3.2 mg of iron (17% of the daily requirement); the same weight of hard red spring wheat contains about 15.4 grams of protein, 1.9 grams of total fat, 68 grams of carbohydrate (by difference), 12.2 grams of dietary fiber, and 3.6 mg of iron (20% of the daily requirement). ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/339 "2009-09-01T01:56:50Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Grain doesn’t have any protein or fat in it, no matter how much you eat. huh I wonder why my Arborio rice lists 3g protein per 45g serving, then. I wonder why my pasta lists 6g protein and 1g fat per 56g serving. **Dio** , you should prolly ring up the FDA and let them know about the naked deceit happening on their watch! Chop chop! ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/340 "2009-09-01T04:34:03Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Observant Jews think it’s unethical for them to eat pork, but they don’t care if you eat it. Why? Because they have separate ethics for themselves and other people. I already debunked this upthread.The reason observant Jews do not believe that gentiles have to be kosher is because gentiles don’t have a _covenant_ to be kosher. Jewish law only applies to Jews. Jews do not believe that eating pork is unethical _per se_. They think it’s unethical to break their covenant. This is not comparable to ethical vegetarianism because vegetarians do not believe they have some special agreement with God which only applies to them. They think the act of killing animals _per se_ is unethical. People need to quit trying to raise this as a rebuttal. It’s not valid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967.md?page=18)