# Vegetarians Are Intolerant Jerks \[Moved from BBQ Pit\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967 "2009-08-27T22:44:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/361 "2009-09-01T16:40:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The [Maasai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai#Diet), for one. > > Arctic peoples have also traditionally survived on nothing but fish and meat. Not a lot of crops up there. Best not to cite Wiki as a source, **Dio**. They’re notoriously unreliable. The Maasai diet has historically incorporated a number of plants. [See page 178](http://books.google.com/books?id=P1TYDZ_9e5EC&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=maasai+diet&source=bl&ots=1JEkn4Mjwe&sig=pw7O11J_Fo3UnICULYBxtkx7N28&hl=en&ei=Q02dSpKsMcLvnQe8x5yLBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#v=onepage&q=maasai%20diet&f=false) Inuit also gather and consume plants. [Shaw Communications](http://members.shaw.ca/karen.fediuk/VitaminCintheInuitdiet.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/362 "2009-09-01T16:40:05Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The [Maasai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai#Diet), for one. Did you even read that cite? “Meat, although an important food, is consumed irregularly and cannot be classified as a staple food. Animal fats or butter are used in cooking, primarily of porridge, maize, and beans.” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/363 "2009-09-01T16:40:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The [Maasai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai#Diet), for one. Good lord man, you really need to read your own cites. > [@](#): > > Traditionally, the Maasai diet consisted of meat, milk, and blood from cattle. An ILCA study (Nestel 1989) states: “Today, the staple diet of the Maasai consists of cow’s milk and maize-meal. The former is largely drunk fresh or in sweet tea and the latter is used to make a liquid or solid porridge. The solid porridge is known as uoali and is eaten with milk; unlike the liquid porridge, uoali is not prepared with milk. **Meat, although an important food, is consumed irregularly and cannot be classified as a staple food.** Animal fats or butter are used in cooking, primarily of porridge, maize, and beans. Butter is also an important infant food. Blood is rarely drunk.” Are beans meat? Maize? Butter? Milk? If meat is irregularly consumed, how in the world can it be said that they live on nothing but meat? If they eat beans, maize, milk, etc., how can it be that they live on nothing but meat? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/364 "2009-09-01T16:42:45Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The [Maasai](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maasai#Diet), for one. Where the heck in that cite does it say the Maasai live on just meat? You…you do know that milk _isn’t_ meat, right? > [@](#): > > Arctic peoples have also traditionally survived on nothing but fish and meat. Not a lot of crops up there. Berries, “mousefood”… Yes, the Arctic diet is probably 90% meat, but it certainly wasn’t “nothing but”. And fish is essential in such a diet. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/365 "2009-09-01T16:45:06Z")
Fish is meat. And the Maasai diet has _changed_. It used to be nothing but meat, blood and milk. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/366 "2009-09-01T16:48:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > And the Maasai diet has _changed_. It used to be nothing but meat, blood and milk. No it wasn’t. Check my cite. Lots more about saponins from plants in the Maasai diet out there in other scholarly journals too. It seems the plants they eat tend to lower cholesterol. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/367 "2009-09-01T16:51:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > And the Maasai diet has _changed_. Gee, I wonder _why?_ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/368 "2009-09-01T16:52:32Z")
Preachy vegetarians, probably. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/369 "2009-09-01T16:54:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Your post did not _show_ knowledge Hell, neither do yours, Mr. Grain Does Not Contain Protein. Doesn’t stop you much though, does it? However, I disagree that my post did not show knowledge. > [@](#): > > Keeping kosher _per se_ is not an ethical standard. It’s part of a covenant that only they are bound by. There is no comparison there to ethical vegetarianism which is based on a premise that eating animals _per se_ is an unethical act. How many times do you have to be told that not everyone who is an ethical vegetarian believes that eating animals per se is an unethical act? > [@](#): > > What’s childish is then trying to save the misplaced kosher analogy by pretending there might be some similar covenant between God and _only_ vegetarians that I don’t know about. No there isn’t. Is this really going to devolve into “no it isn’t/yes it is”? I have a personal spiritual belief that dictates that it’s wrong for me. Just as Jews have ethical standards to which they only hold themselves, I have ethical standards to which I only hold myself. This is as far as you need to take the analogy and no further. When you get all nitpicky and semantic about the analogy and extend it beyond the point of comparison, of course it breaks down, as all analogies will. > [@](#): > > It’s not meaningless at all. Not all religious requirements have anything to do with ethics. Please explain the distinction if you really believe there is one. > [@](#): > > Not really true, and you still don’t get that whatever ethical principle is involved with keeping kosher has nothing to do with the _per se_ diet, but with keeping a promise. As an analogy, if I promise to buy my kids ice cream after their dentist appointment, and then don’t do it, the ethical breech is not in failing to buy the ice cream, but in breaking a promise. Vegetarians have no similar agreement which exludes omnivores. They think the _per se_ act of killing and eating animals is unethical. That’s why keeping kosher is not a valid analogy. Again, here you are, telling me what my personal agreement might be with whatever higher power I might believe in. You are wrong. You don’t know that I believe the per se act of killing and eating animals is unethical. Saying it over and over doesn’t make it so, so you can stop doing it any time you like. > [@](#): > > The latter people don’t believe they have a special covenant with God that includes only them. You don’t know that. I wouldn’t call it a special convenant with God. I’d call it a personal code of ethics. It includes only me. Accept it and let it go. > [@](#): > > Please understand that I’m not saying it’s illogical to be an ethical vegetarianism, I’m saying it’s disingenuous to say you only think it’s unethical for YOU to eat factory farm beef, but fine for everyone else. If cruelty to animals is the issue, then the cruelty remains regardless. It’s not that it’s FINE for everyone. It’s that I don’t feel the need to universalize my personal relationship with what you might call God. I don’t see how that’s disingenuous. Might be morally relativistic, but I’m OK with that. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/370 "2009-09-01T16:54:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > And the Maasai diet has _changed_. It used to be nothing but meat, blood and milk. So? You said _do_, not _used to_. And blood and milk are not meat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/371 "2009-09-01T17:19:42Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > How many times do you have to be told that not everyone who is an ethical vegetarian believes that eating animals per se is an unethical act? No matter how many times you say it, it still never makes sense. It’s just a disingenuous weasel. There is no such thing as “only unethical for me.” The ethical value of a _per se_ act does not depend on the specific identity of the individual who is committing it. If you don’t really think that eating factory famed animals is unethical for everyone else, then you don’t really think it’s unethical for you. You can’t have it both ways. > [@](#): > > It’s not that it’s FINE for everyone. So you DO think it’s unethical for everyone else. > [@](#): > > It’s that I don’t feel the need to universalize my personal relationship with what you might call God. I don’t see how that’s disingenuous. Might be morally relativistic, but I’m OK with that. If you really think that participating in the factory farming of animals is _per se_ cruel and unethical, then it’s unethical for everybody. How can it possibly make any ethical difference who does it? It’s not the same as keeping a kosher covenant, because you’re talking about an act which _remains_ cuel and unethical whether the pesron committing the act believes they have a covenant or not. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/372 "2009-09-01T17:24:47Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > So? You said _do_, not _used to_. And blood and milk are not meat. Same difference in both cases. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/373 "2009-09-01T17:27:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Same difference in both cases. _Do_ and _used to_ are the same? So your wife’s ex boyfriend is still fucking her? Milk is meat? Really? In what universe? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/374 "2009-09-01T17:30:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No matter how many times you say it, it still never makes sense. It’s just a disingenuous weasel. You wrote the book on that, so I guess you’d know. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > There is no such thing as “only unethical for me.” The ethical value of a _per se_ does not depend on the individual who is committing it. If you don’t really think that eating factory famed animals is unethical for everyone else, then you don’t really think it’s unethical for you. You can’t have it both ways. How about this: I think it’s unethical, but it’s also none of my business. I am not going to attempt to impose my ethics on you in any way. I’m not going to bring it up, discuss it with you, ask you to change, or in any way cause my ethics to affect your life. So, in effect, my ethics will have no effect on you or your life. My ethics don’t affect my husband whatsoever. I wish he wouldn’t eat meat, but I still buy it for him because half the money for the groceries is his, and he can eat what he likes. Live and let live. He has his own conscience and it’s not for me to dictate how he interacts with it. > [@](#): > > If you really think that participating in the factory farming of animals is _per se_ cruel and unethical, then it’s unethical for everybody. How can it possibly make any ethical differece who does it? Everyone who lives by ethical standards has to accept that other people do not live by their standards. Jews have to live with gentiles, Christians with atheists. You go about your personal business, conducting your own relationship with others and your God. I do the same with my ethics. I don’t think that’s disingenuous or morally compromised of me, accepting that other people’s beliefs and actions are outside of my control. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/375 "2009-09-01T18:10:13Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > That you already knew that grain contained protein and fat, but decided to lie about it . . . Leave accusations of lying, even conditional ones, out of Greart Debates. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/376 "2009-09-01T18:29:47Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > How about this: I think it’s unethical, but it’s also none of my business. This makes sense, but it’s not the same as a position that the ethics are variable. As an analogy, I can say that I think it’s unethical to cheat on my wife, but also recognize that it’s none of my business if someone else cheats on their spouse. It’s not that I _don’t_ think they’re behaving unethically, but that I don’t think it’s my job to police them. I can understand THIS approach to parsing the ethics, but no the position that “it’s only unethical for me.” ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/377 "2009-09-01T18:43:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This makes sense, but it’s not the same as a position that the ethics are variable. Indeed. The former describes the concept of moral autonomy: [Autonomy in Moral and Political Philosophy (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/autonomy-moral/#AutPat) ; the latter–moral or ethical relativism. [Moral Relativism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)](http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-relativism/) ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/378 "2009-09-01T18:47:23Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > This makes sense, but it’s not the same as a position that the ethics are variable. > > As an analogy, I can say that I think it’s unethical to cheat on my wife, but also recognize that it’s none of my business if someone else cheats on their spouse. It’s not that I _don’t_ think they’re behaving unethically, but that I don’t think it’s my job to police them. I can understand THIS approach to parsing the ethics, but no the position that “it’s only unethical for me.” Then we have finally reached some sort of rapproachment, though with one caveat: I acknowledge that while, to me, it would be unethical, the other person may genuinely not believe it to be so. I don’t think I have the right to impose my ethics on other sane people of basically good will because my ethics are in some way superior or universalizable. If you can accept this, then the discussion is essentially over. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/379 "2009-09-01T18:47:35Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Leave accusations of lying, even conditional ones, out of Greart Debates. > > [/Modding] If you’re not going to pull him up for blatant dishonesty, what else is there to do. Christ, he actually posted a cite which he claims supports the assertion that the Maasai live on nothing but meat, and his own cite directly contradicts the assertion. I mean, if there was some room for interpretation of the cite, that would be different, but it precisely and unequivocally contradicts the assertion that he claims it supports. He made a direct claim that grains contain no protein and no fat. There’s no interpretation necessary there. It’s a blatant untruth. He hasn’t even had the balls to acknowledge he’s wrong about it. If you can’t maintain some minimum standards of honesty in GD, don’t be surprised if the quality of debate deteriorates. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967/380 "2009-09-01T18:52:03Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Then we have finally reached some sort of rapproachment, though with one caveat: I acknowledge that while, to me, it would be unethical, the other person may genuinely not believe it to be so. I don’t think I have the right to impose my ethics on other sane people of basically good will because my ethics are in some way superior or universalizable. If you can accept this, then the discussion is essentially over. You may have reached some rapprochement, but the only reason you needed to slog through the issue in the first place was that **Diogenes** was asserting that vegetarians try to impose their ethics on meat-eaters. He then weaseled and moved the goalposts about a mile, while continuing to whine about intolerant vegetarians. It truly was a spectacular display. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vegetarians-are-intolerant-jerks-moved-from-bbq-pit/507967.md?page=20)