Vehicle attack in Toronto

[HurricaneDitka]

@Sunspace

They are now saying that it was not, repeat not, an organized terror attack:

Deadly van ‘attack’ not part of organized terror plot, says Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale
Deadly van 'attack' not part of organized terror plot, says Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale | CBC News
Shared via the CBC News Android App

I wonder what the distinction would be between an “organized” terror plot and an unorganized one. “Home-grown” / “lone wolf” vs material support (from an established terrorist organization like ISIS)?

[Gorsnak]

That is a seriously ballsy bit of policing. Clearly attempted suicide by cop, and the cop just not buying it at all.

[carnivorousplant]

@HurricaneDitka

I wonder what the distinction would be between an “organized” terror plot and an unorganized one. “Home-grown” / “lone wolf” vs material support (from an established terrorist organization like ISIS)?

My ex-wife looking for me on the sidewalk.

[carnivorousplant]

@Gorsnak

That is a seriously ballsy bit of policing. Clearly attempted suicide by cop, and the cop just not buying it at all.

That is the way all policemen should work.

[Loach]

@Northern_Piper

From previous threads about the use of deadly force, it appears that Canadian doctrine for police response when presented with a possible weapon situation is stricter than is the case in the US. Not meaning to start a debate or score any political points, just an observation on comparative training.

A large cop only page I’m on also has a large number of Canadian officers. The word going around is not that he was operating under stricter rules, it’s that in broad daylight with a clear line of sight he was able to immediately determine it wasn’t a gun. That happens every day in the US. It’s happened to me a few times in my career. You usually only hear about it when it goes wrong.

[carnivorousplant]

@Loach

A large cop only page I’m on also has a large number of Canadian officers. The word going around is not that he was operating under stricter rules, it’s that in broad daylight with a clear line of sight he was able to immediately determine it wasn’t a gun. That happens every day in the US. It’s happened to me a few times in my career. You usually only hear about it when it goes wrong.

I understand about shooting a guy until he goes down, and all the cops shooting; you don’t stop and decide who will fire. But the guy taking out his wallet who was shot fourteen times? I wonder if that would happen in Canada. What is the Canadian Policeman opinion of that incident?

[hogarth]

@HurricaneDitka

Only one small correction, I don’t believe it was just his “fingers” he was pointing. He had some dark object in his hand. You can see it pretty clearly in the ground-level video, from about 0:12 onward, and he very clearly drops / tosses something in the skyscraper-angle video at 0:07.

It was a cell phone.

It’s weird to think this happened just a few blocks from my house. I had some difficulty getting home from work today, not surprisingly.

[JoseB]

@HurricaneDitka

I wonder what the distinction would be between an “organized” terror plot and an unorganized one. “Home-grown” / “lone wolf” vs material support (from an established terrorist organization like ISIS)?

An organized plot is easier to find about, especially if you have the perpetrator alive and in your hands. It is also easier to discard. I imagine that this announcement was made as soon as they were able to ascertain that this guy was not part of an organized cell.

Self-radicalization and “lone wolf” attacks may be harder to confirm. They will want to make sure before saying anything in this respect.

My opinion… The suspect’s name is Alek Minassian. Minassian is an Armenian surname (can be found also written as “Minasyan” or “Minasian — cf. Minasyan - Wikipedia ). A very Armenian surname.

It seems exceedingly unlikely to me that this man would have anything to do with Islam. Armenians today still remember the suffering of the Armenians at the hands of the Ottoman Turks and are not exactly the kid of people who would convert to any variant of fundamentalist Islam just like that (leaving aside that, usually, if somebody does so they tend to change their name into an Arab name).

I definitely find it very implausible that this guy has anything to do with Al-Qaeda, militant Islam, Daesh or any of their ilk.

He has been living for quite a while in Canada (CBC says that he graduated high school in Toronto in 2011, and the classmate they interviewed said that Minassian always was a bit of a loner). Link: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-van-attack-driver-profile-alek-minassian-1.4632435

I think that this will end up being a loser who lashed out at the world. In the US he might have ended up shooting up his workplace. In Canada it was easier for him to just rent a van and start mowing down people.

A pitiful, miserable asshole, in short.

[Staggerlee]

@HurricaneDitka

I wonder what the distinction would be between an “organized” terror plot and an unorganized one. “Home-grown” / “lone wolf” vs material support (from an established terrorist organization like ISIS)?

Almost sounds like you’re slightly disappointed in the direction this story might be going, having started the thread.

[Sunspace]

The suspect has been charged with 10 counts of murder and 13 counts of attempted murder.

(And the job fair I was going to has, understandably, been cancelled. Disturbing to think that if this had happened a day later, I would have just been arriving at Mel Lastman Square as the attack took place…)

[Northern_Piper]

Sunspace, I’m glad you and other TO Dopers, like hogarth, are okay.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Staggerlee

Almost sounds like you’re slightly disappointed in the direction this story might be going, having started the thread.

I think it’s unfortunate that 10 innocent people are dead and some number more are in varying states of injury. Beyond that sad fact, I think any feelings about “the direction this story might be going” rather pale in comparison.

[Loach]

@Sunspace

The suspect has been charged with 10 counts of murder and 13 counts of attempted murder.

(And the job fair I was going to has, understandably, been cancelled. Disturbing to think that if this had happened a day later, I would have just been arriving at Mel Lastman Square as the attack took place…)

Any hint at a motivation? So far I haven’t seen anything much.

[HurricaneDitka]

@Loach

Any hint at a motivation? So far I haven’t seen anything much.

The only thing I’ve seen was that he posted something on social media praising the sexually-frustrated killing spree Californian from a few years ago: https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/24/us/toronto-suspect-what-we-know

Shortly before he allegedly killed 10 pedestrians Monday, Alek Minassian may have praised a man who vowed to “destroy” women who rejected him.

“All hail the Supreme Gentleman Elliot Rodger!” reads a Facebook page believed to be Minassian’s. The accolade apparently refers to the California killer who carried out a “day of retribution” in 2014.

ETA: “Supreme Gentleman” my ass, what a piece of shit!

[Northern_Piper]

Between Humboldt and now TO, it’s been a hard month for Canada.

[Muffin]

From Leadnow.ca - À l’Action’s Facebook post:

From the cops who didn’t shoot.

To the politicians who didn’t fan flames of division for political gain.

And the media who showed restraint, allowing facts to unfold without speculating beyond repair.

And all the people who showed unity not hatred in the face of tragedy.

We stand #TOgether.

[BlankSlate]

Ouch. An /r/The_Donald, incel type of loser. Not what the OP was hoping for, eh?

[Loach]

@BlankSlate

Ouch. An /r/The_Donald, incel type of loser. Not what the OP was hoping for, eh?

If you or anyone has a problem with a poster take it to the Pit.

[Dr_Paprika]

I really like Muffin’s post from Leadnow.

[Northern_Piper]

@Loach

@Northern Piper

From previous threads about the use of deadly force, it appears that Canadian doctrine for police response when presented with a possible weapon situation is stricter than is the case in the US. Not meaning to start a debate or score any political points, just an observation on comparative training.

A large cop only page I’m on also has a large number of Canadian officers. The word going around is not that he was operating under stricter rules, it’s that in broad daylight with a clear line of sight he was able to immediately determine it wasn’t a gun. That happens every day in the US. It’s happened to me a few times in my career. You usually only hear about it when it goes wrong.

Loach, this is the previous discussion comparing use of deadly force that I was thinking of, from three years ago in this thread: should the cop really legally shot the fugitive? [David Sweat]

@Northern_Piper

@Loach

Use of force rule are similar but not exactly the same from state to state. I don’t know the exact wording in NY (and more importantly, how they have been interpreted) but here is what the NJ Attorney General’s guidelines are on the subject:

escape of a fleeing suspect

a. whom the officer has probable cause to believe has
committed an offense in which the suspect caused or attempted to cause death or serious bodily harm; and

b. who will pose an imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm should the escape succeed; and

c. when the use of deadly force presents no substantial risk of injury to innocent persons.

A desperate convicted murderer would fall within the rules. An escaped burglar would not.

That is speaking in general terms. I don’t know exactly how it went down in this case.

Out of curiousity, I asked a friend of mine who is a Crown prosecutor if the Canadian use of force rules were similar. His off-the-cuff answer was that he didn’t think the use of deadly force in these circumstances would be justified, because the guy was fleeing from the cop, rather than posing a direct threat to him, and there was no evidence that he was armed. I think the fact that the shooting officer id’d him solely from the description would have also counted against the use of deadly force, because of the possibility of a mis-identification in such short circumstances.