# Velvet Buzzsaw: When "great art" is bad art: SPOILER'S **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** arts-crafts\ **Created:** [December 29, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185 "2020-12-29T16:52:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/21 "2020-12-31T17:23:49Z")
Ha you’re not wrong ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/22 "2020-12-31T17:46:32Z")
This was one of the (many) issues with the gone-but-still-snarked-on _Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip_. The “show within a show” was supposed to be offering groundbreaking, thought-provoking political comedy, but the snippets we see were just terrible. Unlike _30 Rock_, however, the show had no sense of humor about this. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/23 "2020-12-31T19:29:04Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > This was one of the (many) issues with the gone-but-still-snarked-on _Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip_ . The “show within a show” was supposed to be offering groundbreaking, thought-provoking political comedy, but the snippets we see were just terrible. Unlike _30 Rock_ , however, the show had no sense of humor about this. Another thing that hurt _Studio 60_ in this comparison is that the characters in _30 Rock_ were portrayed as a bunch of people who worked on a typical comedy show. But we were constantly being told on _Studio 60_ that the characters we were watching were comedic geniuses of near legendary status. ---
**Author:** ![ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chockfullofheadygoodness/32/511_2.png) [@ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChockFullOfHeadyGoodness)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/24 "2020-12-31T20:32:17Z")
I haven’t seen the third Bill and Ted movie yet. Did they actually feature the song that is supposed to change humanity? In the first two, they avoided playing the song, either with Rufus’ fourth wall breaking “they get better” or implying that Wyld Stallyns are just getting started. Do they dance around it again in “Face the Music” or do they actually try to present it? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/25 "2020-12-31T21:24:08Z")
Yes, but it actually kinda works. No spoilers! ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2020, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/26 "2020-12-31T23:35:54Z")
I posted a [comment](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/movies-that-cant-possibly-be-real/929289/31) meant for this thread in the wrong one. ---
**Author:** ![smilingbandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@smilingbandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smilingbandit)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/27 "2021-01-01T00:42:25Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > > [@lissener](#): > > > > Putting aside for now the near certainty that the Dease paintings in VB would, irl, more likely be seen in a coffeeshop than a major gallery, what are we others that require such a stretch of suspended disbelief? > > 😕 > > Dease and Dease? What is Dease? Is… is that a Star Trek reference? Because if so, congratulations. I laughed. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/28 "2021-01-01T03:09:21Z")
> [@smilingbandit](#): > > > [@AHunter3](#): > > > > Dease and Dease? What is Dease? > > Is… is that a Star Trek reference? Because if so, congratulations. I laughed. 🙂 Guilty as charged! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/29 "2021-01-01T15:16:31Z")
The best solution to the OP’s dilemma was in _I’ve Heard the Mermaids Singing_, where the supposed great paintings are just blindingly white blank canvases. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/30 "2021-01-01T16:26:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The best solution to the OP’s dilemma was in _I’ve Heard the Mermaids Singing_, where the supposed great paintings are just blindingly white blank canvases.   I present to you… …the Emperor’s new paintings! ⬜ ⬜ ⬜ 😁 > **[Would You Pay $20M for an All-White Ryman Painting?](https://observer.com/2014/10/sothebys-bets-big-on-an-all-white-robert-ryman-estimates-20-million/)** > > $20 million for an all-white painting? The market for Robert Ryman is about to change, drastically, or at least that’s what Sotheby’s is betting big on with the inclusion of a sky-high priced work … An installation of Robert Ryman works at the Saatchi Gallery, London: [![](https://observer.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/10/cs02_0040_ryman_installati-copy-e1412375173413.jpg?resize=632,322) ](https://observer.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2014/10/cs02_0040_ryman_installati-copy-e1412375173413.jpg?resize=632,322) > Beyond the sale in 2006 of the 1962 painting, Ryman’s work sold big—but not as big—in the ’80s, ’90s, and particularly the ’00s, for prices between $5 million and near $7 million. > **[White Painting \[three panel\]](https://www.sfmoma.org/artwork/98.308.A-C/)** > > Explore the artists and artworks of our time at the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art. > Each of the five works in Robert Rauschenberg’s _White Paintings_ (1951) consists of a different number of modular panels—there are one-, two-, three-, four-, and seven-panel iterations—that have been painted completely white. In each case, Rauschenberg’s primary aim was to create a painting that looked untouched by human hands, as though it had simply arrived in the world fully formed and absolutely pure. Considered shocking and even characterized as a cheap swindle when they were first exhibited publicly in 1953, the _White Paintings_ have gradually secured a place in art history as important precursors of Minimalism and Conceptualism. Among the most radical aspects of the series is that these works were conceived as remakeable: Rauschenberg viewed them primarily as a concept and allowed for the physical artworks to be repainted and even refabricated from scratch without his direct involvement. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/31 "2021-01-01T16:58:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The best solution to the OP’s dilemma was in _I’ve Heard the Mermaids Singing_ , where the supposed great paintings are just blindingly white blank canvases. The analogous technique works great for indescribable Lovecraftian horrors, too! > [@GreenWyvern](#): > > I present to you… > > …the Emperor’s new paintings! ⬜ ⬜ ⬜ I have seen a black canvas hanging in a museum that genuinely impressed me and I would pay $$$$$$ for it because I like it, not just for some theoretical collector’s value. It may have been a Reinhardt. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/32 "2021-01-01T17:33:39Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I have seen a black canvas hanging in a museum that genuinely impressed me and I would pay $$$$$$ for it because I like it, not just for some theoretical collector’s value. It just so happens that I have a wonderful example of a perfectly black canvas. It’s called _The Emptiness of Illusions in the Dark Night_. The canvas is fully authentic and signed by the artist in the very same black paint! Because I like your posts so much, I’m prepared to sell it to you for a special discount price of only $199,999.95 - this offer expires soon! If you reply within the next 24 hours, I’ll even throw in a black frame as well, for the same price!!! ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/33 "2021-01-01T17:54:27Z")
One of the things I learned from studying art history is the context in which these conceptual artworks were made. With conceptual art the “frame” – i.e. how and where and why – is just as important as the aesthetics. Arguably moreso, as Duchamp proved for all time with _[Fountain](https://www.wikiart.org/en/marcel-duchamp/fountain-1917)._ Until Dada, Futurism, Abstract Expressionism, art was primarily aesthetic, and almost always a picture OF something else. Later, with Abstract Expressionism, the painting became the object itself; you were no longer looking through the painting at its subject, you were looking AT the painting itself. Monochromatic paintings made a strong conceptual statement that moved art history forward in a significant manner. They benefit from being seen in context: in person, on a wall, in a setting that itself gives them significance, like a gallery or a museum. Some of them are about texture, which you can’t experience with a square of white pixels. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2021, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185/34 "2021-01-01T17:59:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The best solution to the OP’s dilemma was in _I’ve Heard the Mermaids Singing_, where the supposed great paintings are just blindingly white blank canvases. Like Tarantino handled it in _Pulp Fiction._ The purest representation of a Macguffin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/velvet-buzzsaw-when-great-art-is-bad-art-spoilers/929185.md?page=1)