# Venezuela continues its race up the list of "shittiest places on Earth"
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [November 15, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651 "2017-11-15T01:20:49Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/1 "2017-11-15T01:20:49Z")
[CNN: Venezuela just defaulted, moving deeper into crisis](http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/14/news/economy/venezuela-debt-default-sp)
> [@](#):
>
> The South American country defaulted on its debt, according to a statement issued Monday night by S&P Global Ratings. The agency said the 30-day grace period had expired for a payment that was due in October.
>
> A debt default risks setting off a dangerous series of events that could exacerbate Venezuela’s food and medical shortages.
>
> If enough holders of a particular bond demand full and immediate repayment, it can prompt investors across all Venezuelan bonds to demand the same thing. Since Venezuela doesn’t have the money to pay all its bondholders right now, investors would then be entitled to seize the country’s assets – primarily barrels of oil – outside its borders.
>
> Venezuela has no other meaningful income other than the oil it sells abroad. The government, meanwhile, has failed for years to ship in enough food and medicine for its citizens. As a result, Venezuelans are waiting hours in line to buy food and dying in hospitals that lack basic resources.
We’re now a LONG ways (well, four years anyways) from [“Hugo Chavez’s economic miracle” that Salon raved about back in 2013](https://www.salon.com/2013/03/06/hugo_chavezs_economic_miracle/).
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### Author:  [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/2 "2017-11-15T02:27:42Z")
Well, our Congresscritters (need I say, Repubs in particular?) will hopefully be watching with rapt attention to the events in Venezuela, and the outcomes, before they try something like that again in this country.
ETA: Okay, I get it. No political jabs in news threads in MPSIMS. But the OP, by his own comment, made clear that he means this to be a political thread rather than (or in addition to) being a news thread.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/3 "2017-11-15T09:18:04Z")
[Here is a WSJ editorial on the subject](https://www.wsj.com/articles/venezuela-goes-bust-1510703305):
> [@](#):
>
> …
>
> Falling oil prices are partly to blame, but the main problem is that chavismo has strangled entrepreneurship. Faced with expropriation, hyperinflation, price controls and rampant corruption, human and monetary capital has fled Venezuela.
>
> …
>
> If Caracas doesn’t find a way to settle with bondholders, they will soon ask authorities to seize Venezuelan assets such as oil shipments at sea and Citgo facilities in the U.S. Such are the wages socialism.
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### Author:  [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/4 "2017-11-15T12:24:57Z")
“Wages of socialism” ?
The American car industry didn’t seem to care much about the wages of socialism when the government bailed their asses out.
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/5 "2017-11-15T12:52:07Z")
Socialism can be applied to different sectors, and can be executed well or executed poorly, depending on the circumstances. Obviously it’s been executed poorly in Venezuela. Socialism has been executed well (for the most part, anyway) in the US military (socialized health care, lots of socialized housing, even socialized dining, etc.) and some other aspects of the US economy and society.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/6 "2017-11-15T14:38:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> Socialism can be applied to different sectors, and can be executed well or executed poorly, depending on the circumstances. Obviously it’s been executed poorly in Venezuela. Socialism has been executed well (for the most part, anyway) in the US military (socialized health care, lots of socialized housing, even socialized dining, etc.) and some other aspects of the US economy and society.
It’s kind of nonsensical to say the military is “socialized”, just given the fact that if we consider it as an economic unit, it is heavily subsidized from the outside. In fact, it is pretty much exclusively funded from the outside. So, if I sent up a “socialized” colony on an island someone and it got a huge infusion of cash every year from the US, would that be a successful application of socialism?
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/7 "2017-11-15T15:41:17Z")
Isn’t the problem more economic mismanagement and the government undermining democracy there?
Had the democratic system worked, the legislature and judiciary could act as a check on Maduro. Instead the legislature is neutered and the judiciary packed with cronies.
No idea what the solution is. I doubt the people can vote their way out of the mess at this point.
Chavez did do some good things at first. Unemployment and poverty dropped. Income went up. Education and health care improved.
Anyway that is why democracy, rule of law and checks and balances are so important. If a government becomes incompetent or corrupt like it has in Venezuela, you can vote them out.
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### Author:  [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/8 "2017-11-15T16:11:21Z")
Chavez was basically a thief. He divided the money making businesses among his supporters without a thought about their continued existence and bribed the populace with public money. This wasn’t socialism, but corruption. If you want a better example of socialism, look at Norway.
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### Author:  [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/9 "2017-11-15T17:24:44Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#):
>
> Isn’t the problem more economic mismanagement and the government undermining democracy there?
>
> Had the democratic system worked, the legislature and judiciary could act as a check on Maduro. Instead the legislature is neutered and the judiciary packed with cronies.
>
> No idea what the solution is. I doubt the people can vote their way out of the mess at this point.
Venzuelan warns Americans not to let that happen here:
[In Venezuela, we couldn’t stop Chávez. Don’t make the same mistakes we did](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2017/01/27/in-venezuela-we-couldnt-stop-chavez-dont-make-the-same-mistakes-we-did/), Andrés Miguel Rondón, Washington Post, January 27, 2017.
> [@](#):
>
> Andrés Miguel Rondón is an economist living in Madrid. He is a Venezuelan citizen who was born and raised there.
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### Author:  [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/10 "2017-11-15T18:15:04Z")
Anyone see a military coup happening in the not too distant future?
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### Author:  [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/11 "2017-11-15T18:57:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#):
>
> It’s kind of nonsensical to say the military is “socialized”, just given the fact that if we consider it as an economic unit, it is heavily subsidized from the outside. In fact, it is pretty much exclusively funded from the outside. So, if I sent up a “socialized” colony on an island someone and it got a huge infusion of cash every year from the US, would that be a successful application of socialism?
In my understanding, tons of things that are widely considered socialized (say, police departments, fire departments, schools, etc.) receive “outside” (presumably meaning taxes and the like) funding. If something that receives some sort of outside funding like tax revenue can’t be considered “socialized”, then what would qualify? I’m not sure if I can think of any socialized system not funded in some way by taxes or other outside sources.
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### Author:  [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/12 "2017-11-15T19:45:32Z")
> [@Two\_Many\_Cats](#):
>
> “Wages of socialism” ?
>
> The American car industry didn’t seem to care much about the wages of socialism when the government bailed their asses out.
Not the Blue Oval.
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### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/13 "2017-11-15T21:26:24Z")
> [@Doubticus](#):
>
> Chavez was basically a thief. He divided the money making businesses among his supporters without a thought about their continued existence and bribed the populace with public money. This wasn’t socialism, but corruption. If you want a better example of socialism, look at Norway.
Norway is largely a free market economy. Sure, they have good welfare programs, but that’s not “socialism.” Cuba is a socialist country.
If we start calling all government spending “socialism” the word will cease to have any sort of useful meaning.
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/14 "2017-11-15T22:18:47Z")
> [@PastTense](#):
>
> Anyone see a military coup happening in the not too distant future?
Aren’t the military on the government’s side there? Plus I believe the government has trained and armed pro-government militias.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/15 "2017-11-15T22:26:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#):
>
> In my understanding, tons of things that are widely considered socialized (say, police departments, fire departments, schools, etc.) receive “outside” (presumably meaning taxes and the like) funding. If something that receives some sort of outside funding like tax revenue can’t be considered “socialized”, then what would qualify? I’m not sure if I can think of any socialized system not funded in some way by taxes or other outside sources.
I don’t want to debate that here for reason you probably understand. I might start a GD thread about it.
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### Author:  [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)
#### Post date: [November 15, 2017, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/16 "2017-11-15T22:52:22Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#):
>
> Aren’t the military on the government’s side there? Plus I believe the government has trained and armed pro-government militias.
This is my understanding too. I think a coup in Venezuela is rather unlikely.
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### Author:  [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2017, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/17 "2017-11-16T03:15:05Z")
I guess electing a ruthless lying authoritarian narcissistic egomaniac turned out badly for Venezuela. If only there were some lesson we could draw.
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### Author:  [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2017, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/18 "2017-11-16T03:19:01Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> I guess electing a ruthless lying authoritarian narcissistic egomaniac turned out badly for Venezuela. If only there were some lesson we could draw.
See the article linked in Post #9.
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### Author:  [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2017, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/19 "2017-11-16T03:26:43Z")
> [@Lemur866](#):
>
> I guess electing a ruthless lying authoritarian narcissistic egomaniac turned out badly for Venezuela. If only there were some lesson we could draw.
But its different, our ruthless, lying, authoritarian, narcissistic egomaniac is politically conservative. Chavez was politically left.
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### Author:  [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)
#### Post date: [November 16, 2017, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-continues-its-race-up-the-list-of-shittiest-places-on-earth/801651/20 "2017-11-16T10:43:28Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Norway is largely a free market economy. Sure, they have good welfare programs, but that’s not “socialism.” Cuba is a socialist country.
You seem to have confused socialism and communism.
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