# Venezuela is Coming Apart at the Seams **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958 "2010-06-21T04:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/1 "2010-06-21T04:57:34Z")
Once again, History repeats itself: [Hugo Chavez Spearheads Raids as Food Prices Skyrocket](http://www.cnbc.com/id/37786852) > [@](#): > > Mountains of rotting food found at a government warehouse, soaring prices and soldiers raiding wholesalers accused of hoarding: Food supply is the latest battle in President Hugo Chavez’s socialist revolution. > … > Critics accuse him of steering the country toward a communist dictatorship and say he is destroying the private sector. > > They point to 80,000 tons of rotting food found in warehouses belonging to the government as evidence the state is a poor and corrupt administrator. > > Jose Guzman, an assistant manager at a store raided in Catia, watched with resignation as government agents pored over the company’s accounts and computers after the food ministry official and the television cameras left. > > “The government is pushing this type of establishment toward bankruptcy,” said Guzman, who linked the raid to the rotten food scandal. “Somehow they have to replace all the food that was lost, and this is the most expeditious way.” This was predictable as rain. Marxist idiot nationalizes wide swaths of the economy, which then under-perform. The economy tanks, and he starts looking for a scapegoat: > [@](#): > > Fighting back, Chavez says he is in an economic war against the “parasitic bourgeoisie” that tries to convince Venezuelans that socialism does not work by twisting facts and taking advantage of honest mistakes. So now business owners are ‘parasites’. Prices go up because of shortages, and Chavez blows a gasket and starts taking over food distribution and setting price caps. Shortages get worse, and the black market increases in size. This doesn’t end well. The question is, where does this end? Would anyone like to predict how the Hugo Chavez story ends? ---
**Author:** ![antonio107](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ea924/32.png) [@antonio107](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/antonio107)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/2 "2010-06-21T05:17:11Z")
Well, if Cuba, N. Korea and Rhodesia are any examples to go by, 3rd world planned economies tend to go very badly for a very long period of time. Does he have a son or brother that can succeed him? ---
**Author:** ![Staale\_Nordlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Staale\_Nordlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staale_Nordlie)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/3 "2010-06-21T05:19:05Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The question is, where does this end? Would anyone like to predict how the Hugo Chavez story ends? Look to the socialist paradise of Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe, **3 years ago** : > **[Access Restricted](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1556417/Mugabes-inflation-police-raid-shopkeepers.html)** > [@](#): > > Plain-clothes police sought to enforce Zimbabwe’s new price controls by raiding shops yesterday as President Robert Mugabe’s regime waged a desperate struggle against soaring inflation. > > … > > Ministers claim that the inflation rate of 4,500 per cent - the highest in the world - is solely caused by greedy shopkeepers raising their prices for no good reason. Propaganda tries to portray businessmen as the true authors of the economic collapse - deflecting blame from Mr Mugabe. > > … > > “We will not allow sell-outs, renegades and money-mongers to interfere with our good way of life. You are warned to stop,” said Joseph Msika, the 84-year-old vice-president. > > … > > The new controls force supermarkets to sell food at below its cost from wholesalers. Unless the regime relents, there will be food shortages, empty shelves and, eventually, the closure of all shops. > > “We won’t be restocking. If need be, we might have to close shop rather than stick to government prices,” said the manager of one store. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/4 "2010-06-21T05:20:16Z")
We need to see if Chavez can lose an election first, something he, as far as I know, has yet to do. (I admit to being unaware if the elections Chavez has participated in have been ruled illegitimate by international, objective observers, so if anyone knows let me know) I don’t like Chavez at all but I understand that for whatever reason, he has the support of the poor masses of Venezuela. In Mexico, during the reign of the PRI, the relatively left-wing party in power was corrupt and everyone knew it. Yet they kept winning, not just because of electoral shenanigans but also because of the perception that they were for the poor people, while the opposition PAN party were seen to be for the rich. The Mexicans had a saying that was roughly translated to, “if those who are for us are kicking us, the ones who are against us would really screw us.” If this type of sentiment holds true for Chavez in Venezuela, he will be fine more or less no matter what he does. When the majority of people see a better alternative, they will go for that. What Chavez does when confronted with that is another story. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/5 "2010-06-21T05:30:35Z")
I should also add that, as the situation in Venezuela deteriorates, there will be a resultant drain of educated and wealthy people from the country, lowering the proportion of residents who would be opposed to this particular populist dictatorship. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/6 "2010-06-21T13:55:09Z")
> [@nani](#): > > We need to see if Chavez can lose an election first, something he, as far as I know, has yet to do. (I admit to being unaware if the elections Chavez has participated in have been ruled illegitimate by international, objective observers, so if anyone knows let me know) He probably did lose the last one, or at least wouild have if anything like a fair election had taken place. The opposition party more or less said “screw it”, we can’t get a fair tally and simply didn’t run, since they knew Chavez would fake the results. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/7 "2010-06-21T14:47:43Z")
Thank god no free market countries are coming apart at the seams in 2010. At least we always have that. No real idea what the long term consequences of Chavez’s leadership will be though. On another note, childhood malnutrition has gone from 21% to 4% from 1998-2006 in Venezuela. > **[Venezuela Reduces Malnutrition in Children to 4%](http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/3626)** > > According to Venezuela’s National Nutrition Institute (INN), slightly more than 4% of Venezuelan children under the age of 5 suffered malnutrition in 2007 according to the standards set by the World Health Organization (WHO). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/8 "2010-06-21T14:59:43Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Thank god no free market countries are coming apart at the seams in 2010. At least we always have that. > > No real idea what the long term consequences of Chavez’s leadership will be though. > > On another note, childhood malnutrition has gone from 21% to 4% from 1998-2006 in Venezuela. > > [Venezuela Reduces Malnutrition in Children to 4% - Venezuelanalysis](http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/3626) Shhhh…you’re not supposed to post positives when **Sam** is kicking commies… ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/9 "2010-06-21T15:12:08Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > In another note, childhood malnutrition has gone from 21% to 4% from 1998-2006 in Venezuela. A source from from Chavez’s own government, despite the fact that food stocks have actually run low… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/10 "2010-06-21T15:44:39Z")
Happily, if you have an alternative source of information, you are free to share. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/11 "2010-06-21T15:46:57Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Happily, if you have an alternative source of information, you are free to share. Sadly, good, independant sources of information don’t seem to exist anymore for Venezuela. However, reports of food prices skyrocketing have been confirmed, which makes the former report seem less than honest. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/12 "2010-06-21T15:57:08Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Sadly, good, independant sources of information don’t seem to exist anymore for Venezuela. However, reports of food prices skyrocketing have been confirmed, which makes the former report seem less than honest. This Venezuelan blogger thinks her government is full of propaganda about feeding the hungry and poor: [http://development.thinkaboutit.eu/think3/post/no\_one\_goes\_hungry\_in\_venezuela\_true\_or\_false](http://development.thinkaboutit.eu/think3/post/no_one_goes_hungry_in_venezuela_true_or_false) However, I don’t know enough to determine if she’s a serious journalist commanding of respect or a troll. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/13 "2010-06-21T16:17:18Z")
I shoudl also note that the reason I can’t provide any more good, independant sources for Venezuela is becuase Chavez took over anything like it. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/14 "2010-06-21T16:41:14Z")
> [@Staale\_Nordlie](#): > > Look to the socialist paradise of Zimbabwe. Strictly speaking Zim is / was not “socialist” - it’s only (and this is perhaps sadder) "Mugabe Lunatic"ist. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Thank god no free market countries are coming apart at the seams in 2010. At least we always have that. That is utter tripe. What the free market economies are experiencing are a passing issue, not the economy utterly failing. Such comparisons are utterly illiterate. > [@](#): > > No real idea what the long term consequences of Chavez’s leadership will be though. Fairly clear, ruined industry, ruined commerce, and a lost decade or two. Rather like every other socialist experiment. > [@](#): > > On another note, childhood malnutrition has gone from 21% to 4% from 1998-2006 in Venezuela. > > [Venezuela Reduces Malnutrition in Children to 4% - Venezuelanalysis](http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/3626) At the same time food distribution is collapsing, how… very plausible. The Sovs used to publish this sort of thing. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > A source from from Chavez’s own government, despite the fact that food stocks have actually run low… Quite. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/15 "2010-06-21T17:03:46Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Thank god no free market countries are coming apart at the seams in 2010. At least we always have that. Like **wmfellows** says, this is a ludicrous comparison. It’s equivalent to pointing out that the US was going through flu season at the same time as the bubonic plague was hitting Timbuktu like somehow this showed that both places were just as bad to live in. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/16 "2010-06-21T17:19:30Z")
What’s the debate here, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/17 "2010-06-21T17:36:03Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] What’s the debate here, exactly? [/QUOTE] 😛 Hit a cord, did he? Seems clear enough to me…here: > [@](#): > > The question is, where does this end? Would anyone like to predict how the Hugo Chavez story ends? You could also debate whether or not you think Venezuela is ‘Coming Apart at the Seams’, I suppose, since I know you are a big fan of Chavez and Venezuela. -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/18 "2010-06-21T18:21:58Z")
I had not noticed that **BG** was a particular fan of Mr. Chavez. Frankly, I rather doubt it. I might well be a fan of his, if he were who he pretends to be, or if he were who he thinks he is. Evidence strongly suggests that he is not, that he is an authoritarian who used socialist/populist trappings to obtain power. He might just as easily be a genuine populist operating under the delusion that he alone knows The Way. From here, either is equally plausible, and either is equally disastrous. The notion that Mr Chavez demonstrates some eternal verity of political science is too silly to seriously rebut. There are no eternal verities of political science, there is only people, the struggle to create justice and equality varies entirely according to the situation of the people in question. Nothing he has done offers us any proof about “socialism”, whatever the hell that is. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/19 "2010-06-21T18:50:15Z")
Only a true Scotsman could tell you that, eh? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/20 "2010-06-21T18:55:07Z")
I don’t know who could, I only know who claims to. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958.md?page=2)