# Venezuela is Coming Apart at the Seams **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958 "2010-06-21T04:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/21 "2010-06-21T20:05:24Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I had not noticed that **BG** was a particular fan of Mr. Chavez. Frankly, I rather doubt it. > > I might well be a fan of his, if he were who he pretends to be, or if he were who he thinks he is. Evidence strongly suggests that he is not, that he is an authoritarian who used socialist/populist trappings to obtain power. He might just as easily be a genuine populist operating under the delusion that he alone knows The Way. From here, either is equally plausible, and either is equally disastrous. > > The notion that Mr Chavez demonstrates some eternal verity of political science is too silly to seriously rebut. There are no eternal verities of political science, there is only people, the struggle to create justice and equality varies entirely according to the situation of the people in question. Nothing he has done offers us any proof about “socialism”, whatever the hell that is. Go back to one of BG’s earlier threads and I’m sure that he described him as a ‘Latin American version of Charlles De Gaulle’ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/22 "2010-06-21T20:05:59Z")
> [@nani](#): > > We need to see if Chavez can lose an election first, something he, as far as I know, has yet to do. (I admit to being unaware if the elections Chavez has participated in have been ruled illegitimate by international, objective observers, so if anyone knows let me know) I don’t like Chavez at all but I understand that for whatever reason, he has the support of the poor masses of Venezuela. > > In Mexico, during the reign of the PRI, the relatively left-wing party in power was corrupt and everyone knew it. Yet they kept winning, not just because of electoral shenanigans but also because of the perception that they were for the poor people, while the opposition PAN party were seen to be for the rich. The Mexicans had a saying that was roughly translated to, “if those who are for us are kicking us, the ones who are against us would really screw us.” > > If this type of sentiment holds true for Chavez in Venezuela, he will be fine more or less no matter what he does. When the majority of people see a better alternative, they will go for that. What Chavez does when confronted with that is another story. This. I expect Chavez’ [party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Socialist_Party_of_Venezuela) will be a major player in Venezuelan politics long, long after Chavez himself has passed from the scene; and it might even hold on to power as long as the PRI did in Mexico. BTW, no, no Venezuelan election since 1998 has been ruled illegitimate by international observers. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/23 "2010-06-21T20:28:30Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > On another note, childhood malnutrition has gone from 21% to 4% from 1998-2006 in Venezuela. > > [Venezuela Reduces Malnutrition in Children to 4% - Venezuelanalysis](http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/3626) And you know that must be true because Commies have never, ever been known to produce bogus statistics. Seriously, why do so many otherwise intelligent people believe that numbers followed by the percentage symbol must be precise, certain, scientific facts? Like the Shadow, does the % sign possess the mysterious Oriental power to cloud men’s minds? ---
**Author:** ![markdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@markdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdash)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/24 "2010-06-21T20:50:32Z")
I happen to work with two sisters from Venezuela who still maintain contact with their family back in their home country. It’s pretty widely accepted that Chavez gets re-elected because he uses the government’s oil money, and money from redistribution of wealth, to give freebies to the poor. They described roving vans which drove from location to location providing free health care to the poor. The doctors in said vans were apparently mostly Cuban, so when the poor would talk about going to the doctor, they would simply say “I’m going to the Cubans.” Before you take me for a libertarian, I do think that free, government-sponsored health care is a good idea, but this is quite obviously a carrot provided to the poor to keep Chavez and his party in power. As long as he gives the poor enough kickbacks, they will always vote for him in lockstep at the expense of the middle and upper classes. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/25 "2010-06-21T20:54:51Z")
> [@MD12](#): > > Before you take me for a libertarian, I do think that free, government-sponsored health care is a good idea, but this is quite obviously a carrot provided to the poor to keep Chavez and his party in power. As long as he gives the poor enough kickbacks, they will always vote for him in lockstep at the expense of the middle and upper classes. And the problem with that is that (as Margaret Thatcher might say) sooner or later he will run out of other people’s money. Then the game is up – not just for him, but for all of Venezuela. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/26 "2010-06-21T20:58:26Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > And you know that must be true because Commies have never, ever been known to produce bogus statistics. > > Seriously, why do so many otherwise intelligent people believe that numbers followed by the percentage symbol must be precise, certain, scientific facts? Like the Shadow, does the % sign possess the mysterious Oriental power to cloud men’s minds? The source in question is [venezuelanalysis.com.](http://venezuelanalysis.com/about) It purports to be an independent organization. It could, of course, be a government mouthpiece – if you have a cite to that effect, bring it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/27 "2010-06-21T21:09:24Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] I had not noticed that BG was a particular fan of Mr. Chavez. Frankly, I rather doubt it. [/QUOTE] It would be rather embarrassing for him to deny it, since he’s started numerous threads about Chavez in the past. I’m not sure what he thinks about the man today (probably in the same ‘no true Scotsman’ viewpoint you seem to be leaning towards), but in the past he certainly seemed to have a thing for him. It’s funny that you seem to be the only one who doesn’t know this, though perhaps BG hasn’t gotten on your radar wrt Venezuela and the lovely Chavez. > [@](#): > > I might well be a fan of his, if he were who he pretends to be, or if he were who he thinks he is. If he were only not an autocratic dictator, and instead a true servant of the people? Yeah, it’s sad that he isn’t, but don’t give up hope! I’m sure at some point a true socialist paragon of the people will emerge to lead the workers and peasants into paradise…or something. And after doing so, will then selflessly relinquish power and go back to hoeing turnips on the farm (or whatever powerful socialists do once they have lead the people to the promised lands and fulfilled their destiny). To be sure… > [@](#): > > He might just as easily be a genuine populist operating under the delusion that he alone knows The Way. From here, either is equally plausible, and either is equally disastrous. I agree, though I came to this conclusion several years ago. > [@](#): > > The notion that Mr Chavez demonstrates some eternal verity of political science is too silly to seriously rebut. Taken as an isolated case, you are quite correct. Taken with the mountains of evidence of other socialist saviors throughout history, however, one can detect a bit of a pattern. > [@](#): > > There are no eternal verities of political science, there is only people, the struggle to create justice and equality varies entirely according to the situation of the people in question. As does the definition of ‘equality’ and ‘justice’ I’ve noticed. > [@](#): > > Nothing he has done offers us any proof about “socialism”, whatever the hell that is. Again, taken in isolation you have a good point. I don’t believe it’s a judgment on ‘socialism’ so much on socialist/communist oriented autocratic dictatorships that attempt to completely divorce themselves from any sort of market and instead insist on complete command economies dictated by fiat. Have you noticed that there aren’t a lot of examples of ANY sort of modern government that has been successful at that sort of thing? Isn’t that a curious thing? -XT ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/28 "2010-06-21T21:48:06Z")
Where’s the CIA when you need em? If we had Allen Dulles back, we would have: -arranged a deal with some ambitious Venezuelan general -arranged for arms shipments to the patriots -set up a “suicide” for Chavez A coup would solve a lot of problems. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/29 "2010-06-21T22:02:03Z")
[QUOTE=ralph124c] A coup would solve a lot of problems. [/QUOTE] 😛 After all, it’s worked out so well for us in the past… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/30 "2010-06-21T22:02:50Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Where’s the CIA when you need em? If we had Allen Dulles back, we would have: > -arranged a deal with some ambitious Venezuelan general > -arranged for arms shipments to the patriots > -set up a “suicide” for Chavez > A coup would solve a lot of problems. Or you could, you know, just leave it alone and let them figure it our for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/31 "2010-06-21T22:05:19Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Where’s the CIA when you need em? If we had Allen Dulles back, we would have: > -arranged a deal with some ambitious Venezuelan general > -arranged for arms shipments to the patriots > -set up a “suicide” for Chavez > A coup would solve a lot of problems. It would no doubt turn into a long term disaster, as usual. And what makes you think we have the right to do so? How would you feel if a foreign government did that to yours? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/32 "2010-06-21T22:19:42Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It would be rather embarrassing for him to deny it, since he’s started numerous threads about Chavez in the past. I thought the sentiment in those earlier threads was that Chavez is in the mold of [Huey Long](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huey_Long). I don’t see anything yet to change that impression, for better or worse. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/33 "2010-06-21T22:30:01Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Like **wmfellows** says, this is a ludicrous comparison. It’s equivalent to pointing out that the US was going through flu season at the same time as the bubonic plague was hitting Timbuktu like somehow this showed that both places were just as bad to live in. Really? The collapse of the global economy due to an under regulated financial system or a severe environmental catastrophe due to under regulated oil companies (BP was cutting corners, that is why the well blew up) or a potential environmental calamity due to climate change which are being blocked by energy companies are not relevant compared to 80,000 tons of food rotting? Who determines what is relevant and what isn’t? I want to talk to him/her. When did 80,000 tons of food become a bigger issue than collapsing the global economy? I didn’t check the source, however the article said the WHO had commented on Venezuela’s childhood malnutrition issues. So if you conservatives don’t believe Venezuela’s government, you should at least believe the UN. If not, I can probably find Paul Begala saying the same thing somewhere. I have tons of trustworthy sources that conservatives love to listen to. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/34 "2010-06-21T22:36:55Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Really? The collapse of the global economy due to an under regulated financial system or a severe environmental catastrophe due to under regulated oil companies (BP was cutting corners, that is why the well blew up) or a potential environmental calamity due to climate change which are being blocked by energy companies are not relevant compared to 80,000 tons of food rotting? > > Who determines what is relevant and what isn’t? I want to talk to him/her. When did 80,000 tons of food become a bigger issue than collapsing the global economy? shhhhhhhhhhhh the \*grown ups \*are trying to bash socialism as a way to suggest that any socialism will cause a country to come apart at the seams. This way, when someone mentions universal health care, they can point to Venezuela and say, “SEE, THIS IS WHAT SOCIALISM DOES!!!111one” ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/35 "2010-06-21T23:32:45Z")
VHeadline (News and Views about Venezuela), supported Chavez during the the coup against him, later and recently they have posted many pieces \*\*against \*\*Chavez, you see, they supported Chavez mostly because they supported democracy, Chavez was not the main reason why they supported him before. Anyhow, editors at Vheadline point out that: [http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=93236](http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=93236) > [@](#): > > It’s been an open secret that inefficiency and pilfering have been hampering the government’s herculean effort to supply basic food products to the poorer sector of the population. Ever since the humble beginnings of the Mercal distribution chain, the revolution has had to fight off the hustlers, the crooks and the mob. > > The Mercal stores, if properly run, are a great success. > > ``` > * > > I know Mercal stores in barrios that have been around for more than five years and have grown in size and in standing. > > ``` > > PDVAL is a different kettle of fish because it is bigger and apparently has more loopholes through which the mafias have been able to enter and play havoc. Furthermore, it is under Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA), often described as a monster and difficult to control. > > The contradiction is that the former PDVAL director, Luis Pulido (now under arrest) was formerly in charge of PDVSA’s control unit set up to monitor waste and internal corruption. He didn’t do his job properly as head of Petroleos de Venezuela Food (PDVAL) whose public image has been basically one of open markets where hours of queuing have been the norm rather than then exception. > > The main problem the scandal has unearthed is a serious chink in the chain of command and personal responsibility at PDVAL. It’s not just the job of a PDVAL director to monitor imports and supplies but the task of ALL managers and workers. It is a matter of consciousness. > > Why has the scandal been good for the revolution? > > ``` > * > > It shows up flaws in planning starting with ordering goods from abroad, through to checking the state of goods when they come in and making sure they are sent on to their destination. > > ``` > > If the Pedro Camejo Socialist mechanized company can do it successfully with tractors and agricultural machinery, why can’t PDVAL? No excuse! It indicates that PDVAL was and is either too scared to confront the mafias operating in the customs yards or that some employees were part of the mafia. There is also the possibility that the right wing media in Venezuela has once again poisoned the news coming from there: [http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=93413](http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=93413) > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Food Minister, Felix Osorio has replied to accusations that Dominican Republic authorities returned a cargo of expired products sent as humanitarian aid to Haiti in January. Osorio denied categorically that the food had passed its expired date but stressed that the cargo was sent back because the milk could not be used owing of a lack of drinking water in Haiti at the time to dissolve it. The state ABN news agency reported the Minister as saying 51 of 224 containers sent to Haiti were sent back due to unloading problems at the Port-a-Prince port and later the Dominican Republic port. > > The Minister has attacked Globovision for coverage on a cargo of damaged chicken found in Cumana (Sucre). Osorio said the find had nothing to do with government distribution networks and that scientific police investigations threw up the real culprit: a private company called Pollos Venezuela. > > State Governor Enrique Maestre has called for penalties against Globovision for the alleged gaffe, which he called a “new episode in media terrorism.” > > Anzoategui State Governor Tarek William Saab, on the other hand, has admitted that a cargo of powdered milk found in the Jose refinery warehouse was acquired by PDVAL last year and not dispatched because it was found to be contaminated. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/36 "2010-06-21T23:35:02Z")
> [@MD12](#): > > I happen to work with two sisters from Venezuela who still maintain contact with their family back in their home country. > > It’s pretty widely accepted that Chavez gets re-elected because he uses the government’s oil money, and money from redistribution of wealth, to give freebies to the poor. They described roving vans which drove from location to location providing free health care to the poor. The doctors in said vans were apparently mostly Cuban, so when the poor would talk about going to the doctor, they would simply say “I’m going to the Cubans.” > > Before you take me for a libertarian, I do think that free, government-sponsored health care is a good idea, but this is quite obviously a carrot provided to the poor to keep Chavez and his party in power. As long as he gives the poor enough kickbacks, they will always vote for him in lockstep at the expense of the middle and upper classes. It’s true Chavez does give lots of freebies away to the poor. Previous Venezuelan governments made sure that a tiny elite got all the benefits of Venezuela’s oil and the poor got absolutely fuck all. chavez has brought millions of people electrification, (yes, electricity for the first time), healthcare, education, you name it. This is supposed to be a bad thing? So even if Hugo loses a future election he’s changed the face of venezuelan politics forever. The people won’t stand for a tiny minority stealing all the goodies again. And even the tiny minority know it. Look at the main election pledge of the guy who ran in opposition to Chavez the last time the elite put a candidate up. (Chavez ran unoppposed in (regional?) elections one time because the opposition knew they’d take such a beating it would make him look good and give him a huge mandate so they subverted the democratic process and refused to run a candidate while calling his election unfair). Anyway, the main oppositon pledge last time they ran a candidate : [![](https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1140/4722781388_90f81bcddb_b.jpg) ](https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1140/4722781388_90f81bcddb_b.jpg) Basically a benefits card transferring oil money direct to the individual. Everybody in Venezuela would have got one and it would have paid a living wage to everybody according to the pledge. But even though the opposition has now shifted so far to the left, Hugo’s enduring legacy in Venezuelan politics, the country still voted for Hugo. And yes the food price control thing is dumb but every government has struggled mightily with inflation and Hugo is no different, at least he’s still trying to keep food affordable, previous governments didn’t give a shit. All that oil money creates big demand, Venezuela has always had big problems with inflation : [http://venezuelanalysis.com/images/2007/03/venezuela\_inflation.gif](http://venezuelanalysis.com/images/2007/03/venezuela_inflation.gif) High oil prices mean it’s going to go up even if the economy is doing really well otherwise. Back in the seventies during the last high oil price era the government manages to have runaway inflation and reduce everybosy’s living standards at a faster rate than people in sub-Saharan Africa were experiencing. Chavez has worked miracles compared to those guys. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/37 "2010-06-21T23:39:23Z")
And yeah, people bashing Chavez for massive corruption and waste and what have you. Like Venezuela was Switzerland before Hugo took over. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/38 "2010-06-22T01:25:53Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > It’s true Chavez does give lots of freebies away to the poor. Previous Venezuelan governments made sure that a tiny elite got all the benefits of Venezuela’s oil and the poor got absolutely fuck all. chavez has brought millions of people electrification, (yes, electricity for the first time), healthcare, education, you name it. This is supposed to be a bad thing? > > So even if Hugo loses a future election he’s changed the face of venezuelan politics forever. The people won’t stand for a tiny minority stealing all the goodies again. And even the tiny minority know it. Look at the main election pledge of the guy who ran in opposition to Chavez the last time the elite put a candidate up. (Chavez ran unoppposed in (regional?) elections one time because the opposition knew they’d take such a beating it would make him look good and give him a huge mandate so they subverted the democratic process and refused to run a candidate while calling his election unfair). Anyway, the main oppositon pledge last time they ran a candidate : > > [http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1140/4722781388\_90f81bcddb\_b.jpg](http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1140/4722781388_90f81bcddb_b.jpg) > > Basically a benefits card transferring oil money direct to the individual. Everybody in Venezuela would have got one and it would have paid a living wage to everybody according to the pledge. But even though the opposition has now shifted so far to the left, Hugo’s enduring legacy in Venezuelan politics, the country still voted for Hugo. Class warfare would probably reverse that. Turn the middle class against the poor, the natives against the foreigners, the religious against the secularists, etc. then use those divisions to get people to vote for the economic interest of the elite. It works in the US, I’m sure it would work in Venezuela too (people vote because they dislike civil rights and want ‘in god we trust’ on the dollar and they get estate tax cuts and corporate tax cuts by the legislators they vote for because of it). In the US we used to be much further to the left too. LBJ was much further to the left than Obama, and opposition figures like Nixon were themselves arguably further to the left than current mainstream representatives of the left. So this concept that Venezuela will remain to the left is something that has to be waited out and seen. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/39 "2010-06-22T01:43:11Z")
Oooh, when do we get to use violence to adjudicate another nation’s civil conflicts? That’s my favorite part of this process. The build up is alright, but the payoff is the best part. I’m immature like that. > [@ralph124c](#): > > Where’s the CIA when you need em? If we had Allen Dulles back, we would have: > -arranged a deal with some ambitious Venezuelan general > -arranged for arms shipments to the patriots > -set up a “suicide” for Chavez > A coup would solve a lot of problems. Tried and failed. Not even a courtesy mulligan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/40 "2010-06-22T01:50:45Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > So this concept that Venezuela will remain to the left is something that has to be waited out and seen. It’s worth noting that the [Socialist International’s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_international) Venezuelan member parties are [Democratic Action](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Action) and the [Movement for Socialism,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movement_for_Socialism_%28Venezuela%29) and both are in **opposition** right now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958.md?page=3)