# Venezuela is Coming Apart at the Seams **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958 "2010-06-21T04:57:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/61 "2010-06-22T12:28:22Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Another rube thoroughly bamboozled. Look in the mirror. You are the one who thinks that amoral ruthlessness in leaders is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/62 "2010-06-22T14:01:28Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Being Keynesian is not being Marxist, unless you listen to the rhetoric of Rush Limbaugh. Exactly. And it’s difficult to tell where on this spectrum Chavez lies. For all I dislike his reflexive anti-Americanism, I do not see him as a complete brutal Communist dictator just yet. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/63 "2010-06-22T14:13:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This story crops up in different forms over, and over again. Leftist leader takes over country. Western leftists sing his praises, and talk about how this time, the socialist revolution will be proven out, the workers and the common man will have it ever so much better, and the robber barons will get their comeuppance. . . Yes, history repeats itself. Why have you chosen to focus on this part? Perhaps ask yourself, why did the leftist leader take over in the first place? What were the previous guys doing that precipitated the events? Are you even the least bit aware of Venezuela’s history before Chavez? The history is full of failed right-wing dominated countries. Installing a leader that you would consider ideal would mean a handful (if not just one) company would own all the oil. All the oil revenue would leave the country. There would be no environmental protections. So what’s left is a country full of sickened oil workers paid next to nothing. Are you really surprised that they’d eventually rise up? How many times have we seen this played out? A couple of people at the top make all the money, the people at the bottom get shit on. Kudos to Chavez for breaking the pattern that exists in the countries around him you seem to be in favour of. If you are going to talk about history, and least learn a bit. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/64 "2010-06-22T14:20:31Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > In the great balance, I’d rather a coup by a capitalist than a socialist for whatever country I lived in. You wouldn’t if you lived in Chile. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/65 "2010-06-22T14:34:10Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > 1. Putting people against the wall and shooting them kills people. > 2. Starvation, poor medical care, etc. kills people too. > 3. All evil tyrants do #1. > 4. Socialist evil tyrants also cause #2. > 5. All socialist leaders become evil tyrants. > 6. Not all capitalist leaders become evil tyrants. > > In the great balance, I’d rather a coup by a capitalist than a socialist for whatever country I lived in. > > [A](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GM_-_Countries_by_Economic_Freedom_Index.png) + [B](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Arable_land_percent_world.png) = [C](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mort.svg) [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=568118), I challenge you to defend your statement. How does a capitalist system play out? ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/66 "2010-06-22T15:51:11Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Class warfare would probably reverse that. Turn the middle class against the poor, the natives against the foreigners, the religious against the secularists, etc. then use those divisions to get people to vote for the economic interest of the elite. It works in the US, I’m sure it would work in Venezuela too (people vote because they dislike civil rights and want ‘in god we trust’ on the dollar and they get estate tax cuts and corporate tax cuts by the legislators they vote for because of it). In the US we used to be much further to the left too. LBJ was much further to the left than Obama, and opposition figures like Nixon were themselves arguably further to the left than current mainstream representatives of the left. > > So this concept that Venezuela will remain to the left is something that has to be waited out and seen. There’s always been class warfare over there. They use nationalism, the flag and all the things the GOP use to win votes over there, or at least they did till Chavez came along. Now they’re trying to out-lefty him with a debit card giving everybody a monthly welfare payment. What Chavez has built on the left is a movement that people will always have the option of voting for in future and one that’ll prevent the old elites frompermanently taking things back to the way they were. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/67 "2010-06-22T15:57:57Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This story crops up in different forms over, and over again. Leftist leader takes over country. Western leftists sing his praises, and talk about how this time, the socialist revolution will be proven out, the workers and the common man will have it ever so much better, and the robber barons will get their comeuppance. > > Then things start to go wrong. Shortages develop. The economy tanks. The people grow restless. The leader starts scapegoating the rich, or the media, or the Jews, or the Americans, or the black marketeers (black markets always spring up when the economy is grossly mismanaged - and they’re always demonized). Western socialists parrot the leader’s complaints. > > Then things get worse. People are arrested. Businesses confiscated. A few rich ‘profiteers’ are arrested or lynched. Food shortages, inflation… The economy starts coming apart. The people who know how to do make and grow things flee the country. Political cronies take over. The standard of living plummets, and the economy collapses. > > At that point, the socialists in the West declare that the once-great leader was a false prophet, a betrayer of the socialist revolution. The collapse was the fault of the leader’s personal failings and his abandonment of true socialist principles, and not the fault of a lousy political system that concentrates power and takes decision-making out of the hands of people who know what they’re doing and suppresses the information needed to make good choices. > > But the NEXT one! Boy, that will be the revolution that will show everyone how it’s done. > > And history repeats itself - again. A couple of years before Chavez took office there was 100+% inflation in Venezuela, so it’s hard to argue that the previous government were performing economic miracles and Chavez has screwed all that up. There were food shortages, massive corruption, chronic mismanagment of the economy and all the rest of it before Chavez took office too. It’s not like Venezuela was Switzerland before Chavez took office. The same things used to happen back then, just the western media never covered Venezuela before its president started raising oil royalties for foreign companies from 1-16% up to market rates and asking them to pay fair tax rates on the oil they were producing. Then Venezuela suddenly became a country people heard about. I mean how many Americans can name the President of Ecuador? Or Chile? Anyway, I’m interested in all these countries you reference above. If it’s the same old story as you claim then you can give us a list of these countries and when and how the lefties screwed the economy up. But you have to also put this in context by explaining the conditions and economic situation that existed in these countries before and after the lefties took power. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/68 "2010-06-22T17:44:41Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > This story crops up in different forms over, and over again. Leftist leader takes over country. Western leftists sing his praises, and talk about how this time, the socialist revolution will be proven out, the workers and the common man will have it ever so much better, and the robber barons will get their comeuppance. To be fair, capitalists fall prey to the same blindness–I had an argument once with someone who claimed that Pinochet was a hero. One thing that is different, though, is that capitalism inherently has less government control than socialism, which makes it a bit harder (but not impossible, as Pinochet attests) for leaders to turn into dictators. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/69 "2010-06-22T17:51:39Z")
I don’t think people in America are cognizant of the quiet revolution that has taken place in South America over the last 20 years. They’ve swung left and they’re beginning to assert themselves on the world stage. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/70 "2010-06-22T20:55:37Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > One thing that is different, though, is that capitalism inherently has less government control than socialism, which makes it a bit harder (but not impossible, as Pinochet attests) for leaders to turn into dictators. It doesn’t inherently have “less government control than socialism”; it just uses that control for different purposes. And organization like corporations and wealthy individuals have much more power under a right wing regime, and that can be just as bad. Being worked to death or beaten or raped or murdered by corporate or church thugs is just as unpleasant as having the same done to you by government thugs. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/71 "2010-06-22T21:21:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It doesn’t inherently have “less government control than socialism”; it just uses that control for different purposes. And organization like corporations and wealthy individuals have much more power under a right wing regime, and that can be just as bad. I disagree. It isn’t capitalism if the government controls the economy. Despots in capitalist economies (like Pinochet) base their power on the military, not corporations. Despots in socialist/communist countries don’t necessarily need the backing of the military (e.g. Stalin). That said, I don’t buy the “all socialists become despots” argument. The right-wing constantly labels Western Europe as socialist and none qualify as having despots. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/72 "2010-06-22T21:26:43Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I disagree. It isn’t capitalism if the government controls the economy. It is if it is doing so at the behest of the corporations and the wealthy. And the economy is hardly all of society, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/73 "2010-06-22T21:46:04Z")
What’s to say capitalism would have left the people of Venezuela any better off? So there was a container full of food that went to waste because of government failure, leading to starvation. Is that any different than starvation because people can’t afford food? Or shitty health care because people can’t afford medicine? If foreign companies owned the oil, and the farm land, would the people of Venezuela be any better off? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/74 "2010-06-22T22:39:10Z")
[QUOTE=emacknight] What’s to say capitalism would have left the people of Venezuela any better off? So there was a container full of food that went to waste because of government failure, leading to starvation. [/QUOTE] Right, because there are a lot of market based capitalist countries with the wealth and resources of a nation like Venezuela where people routinely starve. I’m sure you have many examples. I encourage you to trot them out and show everyone how they are really just the same. > [@](#): > > Is that any different than starvation because people can’t afford food? Certainly not. Do you have examples of nations of comparable wealth to Venezuela who have their people starve because they can’t afford food? Hell, you don’t even need to stick with market based capitalist nations…ANY examples of modern nations where this happens would work? (As a hint, the only nations who’s citizens starve for any reason at all I can think of off the top of my head are either similarly deluded communist fuckups or 3rd world hell holes with little law or order and huge political and or environmental issues such as several African nations) > [@](#): > > If foreign companies owned the oil, and the farm land, would the people of Venezuela be any better off? Assuming they also had a viable government and some limits on corruption, of COURSE they would. Frankly, they couldn’t be much worse off, all things considered. -XT ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/75 "2010-06-22T23:25:00Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Right, because there are a lot of market based capitalist countries with the wealth and resources of a nation like Venezuela where people routinely starve. I’m sure you have many examples. I encourage you to trot them out and show everyone how they are really just the same. > > Certainly not. Do you have examples of nations of comparable wealth to Venezuela who have their people starve because they can’t afford food? Hell, you don’t even need to stick with market based capitalist nations…ANY examples of modern nations where this happens would work? > > (As a hint, the only nations who’s citizens starve for any reason at all I can think of off the top of my head are either similarly deluded communist fuckups or 3rd world hell holes with little law or order and huge political and or environmental issues such as several African nations) > > Assuming they also had a viable government and some limits on corruption, of COURSE they would. Frankly, they couldn’t be much worse off, all things considered. > > -XT Ah yes, the No True Scotsman emerges. Well played sir, well played. You have bested us all. It appears capitalism prevails! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/76 "2010-06-22T23:57:38Z")
No True Scotsman is it? 😛 Because I wanted to apply something resembling a universal yardstick?? Too funny. And even though I left you all kinds of wiggle room in your possible answer (going so far as to say that you don’t even need to include capitalist/market based economies and their associated countries), THIS was the best you could come back with?? IOW, you gots nuffin, and figured you’d come back with this old chestnut as a viable reply, no? Might even work out for you…who knows? -XT ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/77 "2010-06-23T12:59:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > No True Scotsman is it? 😛 Because I wanted to apply something resembling a universal yardstick?? Too funny. And even though I left you all kinds of wiggle room in your possible answer (going so far as to say that you don’t even need to include capitalist/market based economies and their associated countries), THIS was the best you could come back with?? IOW, you gots nuffin, and figured you’d come back with this old chestnut as a viable reply, no? Might even work out for you…who knows? > > -XT Yes, I imagine it must suck for you that I didn’t fall for your little trap. I find it shortens these debates pretty quick when people stop arguing against giant armies of strawmen, or searching for the Real Slimshady. Unless of course, you can do better? Perhaps you can show us a developed country without socialism. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/78 "2010-06-23T13:43:42Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Certainly not. Do you have examples of nations of comparable wealth to Venezuela who have their people starve because they can’t afford food? Hell, you don’t even need to stick with market based capitalist nations…ANY examples of modern nations where this happens would work? The example you are looking for is Mexico. You may now begin wiggling around and moving the goal posts. Just be careful not to trip while you’re backpedaling. > [@xtisme](#): > > (As a hint, the only nations who’s citizens starve for any reason at all I can think of off the top of my head are either similarly deluded communist fuckups or 3rd world hell holes with little law or order and huge political and or environmental issues such as several African nations) This is how you set up your No True Scotsman. “Show me an example of blah that isn’t a shit hole, there are none! Because any example means they are a shit hole.” I don’t fault you for it, it’s a very common trend on this board. I just hope we can all learn a little. Fighting ignorance all. > [@xtisme](#): > > Assuming they also had a viable government and some limits on corruption, of COURSE they would. Frankly, they couldn’t be much worse off, all things considered. > > -XT And yes, they can be a lot worse off. Think [ur=lhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal\_disaster]Bhopal. If socialism leads to corruption, capitalism necessarily leads to greed. Both kill people. In the first it means food shortages. In the second it means entire water ways destroyed by pollution. You and **Sam Stone** highlight the first, and gloss over the second. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/79 "2010-06-23T16:08:05Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The example you are looking for is Mexico. Or the [United States](http://www.frac.org/html/hunger_in_the_us/hunger_index.html). > [@](#): > > The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) reported that in 2008: > > - Of the 49.1 million people living in food insecure households (up from 36.2 million in 2007), 32.4 million are adults (14.4 percent of all adults) and 16.7 million are children (22.5 percent of all children). > > - 17.3 million people lived in households that were considered to have “very low food security,” a USDA term (previously denominated “food insecure with hunger”) that means one or more people in the household were hungry over the course of the year because of the inability to afford enough food. This was up from 11.9 million in 2007 and 8.5 million in 2000. > > - Very low food security had been getting worse even before the recession. The number of people in this category in 2008 is more than double the number in 2000. > > - Black (25.7 percent) and Hispanic (26.9 percent) households experienced food insecurity at far higher rates than the national average. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958/80 "2010-06-23T16:10:41Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > The example you are looking for is Mexico. Or, perhaps, Venezuela itself, pre-Chavez? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuela-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams/543958.md?page=5)