# Venezuela's Political Situation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818 "2002-12-06T00:13:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/61 "2002-12-07T10:16:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*We know this because this is what Chile looked like during Allende’s three years in power. Now…to be fair, the economic problems were not nearly his fault. They had been building for some time during the previous center-right administrations. However, the legislative deadlock and social unrest was almost certainly Allende’s fault as he refused to compromise or work together with the opposition. \*\* It might also have something to do with the Kissinger/Nixon “Track 1” program to oust Allende, which was “to make the economy scream.” When this didn’t quite work out, they moved onto “Track 2”: kidnapping, assassination, a coup and a friendly fascist dictator to round up all the leftists in the soccer stadium and have them executed. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/62 "2002-12-07T10:20:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sailor \* > \*\*Oh yeah. Like _you_ have any credibility around here. So you are telling me the Cuban exodus is not true? No Cubans in Florida? No Cubans in Spain? No Cubans risking their lives attempting to leave the island? And everything in Cuba is hunky dory? Ok, gotcha. > > BTW, you call me a liar. \*\* You are a liar. You stated, “All who could left the island.” Obviously a blatant lie. Oh, and you might have noticed that there are quite a few more people trying to escape from such capitalist paradises as Haiti, Mexico, Guatemala, etc., despite the fact that Cubans are granted automatic amnesty if they reach U.S. soil. > [@](#): > > \*\*The entire world knows Cuba is a police state with no freedom. \*\* No, the ignorant think they know this. And the class warriors propagate it every chance they get. You see, they just can’t stand the fact that a country has liberated itself from capitalist tyranny and isn’t aching to have the chains put back on. I really wonder if you have actually been to Cuba. Or, if you have, what kind of ideological blinders you must have on. Or, if you are just lying. Upon a moment’s reflection, given your blatant lies, the latter seems most likely. ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/63 "2002-12-07T10:26:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mighty\_Girl \* > \*\*Having said that, I insist that Chavez is bad news for Venezuela. Yes, he was elected democratically, but as history has proven time and time again the people do not always vote for the best (sometimes because there have two chose betwen two evils). \*\* Kissinger couldn’t have said it better himself. You know what he said about Allende? “We can’t just sit by and let a country go communist just due to the irresponsibility of its own people.” Of course, you always have to translate from class warrior speech into English. For the genuine class warrior, “democracy” = “a capital friendly government” and “dictator” = “democrat.” You are right, in a sense, about Chavez being bad news for Venezuela. It has always been the case, throughout history, that populists have aroused the ire of the powerful, who work with a single-minded dedication to destroy them. Oftentimes, the very people they work to help end up getting hurt by their enemies. It is grotesque, though, to blame people like Chavez for Venezuela’s travails, when the real culprit are the VICIOUS bastards who would rather tank the economy and overthrow democracy than allow a populist president to do something for the poor. POWER TO THE PEOPLE! ---
**Author:** ![zigaretten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/91b2a8/32.png) [@zigaretten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zigaretten)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/64 "2002-12-07T10:45:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > POWER TO THE PEOPLE! Would that include the crypto-fascist people? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/65 "2002-12-07T14:54:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*It might also have something to do with the Kissinger/Nixon “Track 1” program to oust Allende, which was “to make the economy scream.” \*\* I never claimed the economic problems were Allende’s fault. Just stated that we have a good idea of what Chile would have been like had the coup never taken place - the economy would have continued to have problems, strikes and lockouts would likely have continued, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/66 "2002-12-07T16:16:36Z")
Is the cold war still going on? Why haven’t I been told? **Chumpsky** wake up and smell the roses. The red comrades lost the war, and it wasn’t the US’s fault. God knows they did all they could to defeat the US. The problem with populist presidents is that they blame their own ineptitude in the ruling class/whites/US/the guy in the corner. They are so blind that they rather divide the country and crush the production infrastructure than change their ways. Aristide: “The white and mulatos don’t love you like I do. They don’t have the color of your skin, nor your hair, like I do. I love you. They despise you”. All this while Haiti’s production infrastructure has collapsed, capital is fleeing and poverty is worse than ever. Never mind that Aristide is a crook, and a drug lord. Robert Mugabe: “The land belongs to the black people”. Never mind that agricultural production has plunged and Zimbabwe is in the brink of a disastrous famine. H. Mejía (our president): "I know what I am doing, they (Businessmen’s Association) need not tell me what to do. I was chosen by the people and if they want to give me advice they should run for the office. Nobody tells me what to do. Never mind that our country is in the brink of an Argentina-like disaster. The purchasing power of my money has shrunk in nearly 100% in the last year alone. Castro: “It’s all the US’s fault”. Duh! Go to Cuba, see it. Talk to Cubans in exile… no, not those who made it to the US. Talk to those who fled to Haiti! of all places. Some later moved to our country, you know, another poor country. That doesn’t seem like a good idea following your theory that Cuba everything is peachy in Castroland. You see, they all have the same strategy: screw up, blame it on someone else. ---
**Author:** ![ZooMetropolis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e480ec/32.png) [@ZooMetropolis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZooMetropolis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/67 "2002-12-07T17:47:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Chumpsky_ > It is grotesque, though, to blame people like Chavez for Venezuela’s travails, when the real culprit are the VICIOUS bastards who would rather tank the economy and overthrow democracy than allow a populist president to do something for the poor. 1. What has done Chavez for the poor? 2. What has done Chavez for the economy? (Are you aware that this two questions are bonded?) Do you know what PDVSA is? Do you know what Chavez was trying to do? Do you know that Chavez is giving away oil to Cuba? (YES GIVING AWAY, that is not getting any money from it) What can you expect him to do for the poor if there is no money? I study in the Universidad Simón Bolívar, and for the first time there was a chaos situation where the teachers haven’t been paid for over a month and had to go on strike. There’s no money to subsidize the buses (which are free) that go to the university. There’s no money to subsidize the food in the “comedores” (I don’t know the english word), which is given ALMOST free (it costs only 8 Bs.) to students, teachers and emplyees. “Fuck the University. Let’s build some more bolivarian schools where I can make people more ignorant and teach them that my failed coups in 1992 was a good thing. That’ll teach those filthy oligarch bastards” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/68 "2002-12-07T18:23:34Z")
Chumpsky: I am damn sick and tired of you calling people liars. Your treatment of ZooMetropolis and sailor has been inexcusably rude, nor have you presented one scintalla of evidence to prove they are engaged in deceit. Frankly, I wish the mods would ban your useless Communist ass. You’re as rude as Collounsbury without being 1/1,000,000th as informative and entertaining. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/69 "2002-12-07T19:35:25Z")
**Zoo** , When the opposition prevents oil from going out and there is less revenue because of strikes from the oil company, this is precisely why I say that people are now being manipulated to follow the designs of the well to do. I agree that Chavez must go, but denying that what the opposition is doing is not ethical is not the right thing to do, or I should say: that they also have the blame in this mess. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/70 "2002-12-07T19:40:56Z")
**GIGO** , I agree that the opposition has played its role in the mess, they have made some inexcusable mistakes. Even so you have to accept that messing the Venezuelan economy to such extent cannot be blamed on the capitalists. I am sure that they are not having fun closing businesses and losing money. This is a lose-lose situation for everybody. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/71 "2002-12-07T19:45:44Z")
I must add **Migthy\_Girl** that I have seen this personally happen before in central America (including seeing people shot at demonstrations), and after reading the truth commissions, personal accounts, etc, It is indeed folly to ignore the power of distortion the big media and business in a Latin country has to mislead the population. It will be much worse if the future of Venezuela is a represive government with a complicit media. And **Chumpsky** : have good cites next time, I am joining the chorus of people complaining about you. ---
**Author:** ![yogisanchez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/bbce88/32.png) [@yogisanchez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yogisanchez)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/72 "2002-12-07T19:59:02Z")
To Everyone: I’ve seen how people are being killed by Chavez people! i’m tired of this situation! Last nigth 3 people died in Altamira. Last nigth The shooter confessed what he did and in a video of some Oficialist (Chavez ppl) concentration he is next to the Municipio Libertador Mayor (Alcalde del Municipio Libertador). Also some Radio comunication beetween Chavists was intercepted, in this comunication they say how to provoke the Opossition to a confrontation in “La Campiña”, if ppl dont know, the oposition were heading there in a March to “la Campiña”(marcha) and suddenly the Chavist came to the place (before the oposition) JUST TO PROVOKE!!! they had weapons, Military weapons!! Wanna know how i know??? A video, and my grandma lives next to that place! This Post is just to tell everyone whats going on in this country and why we need the support of the OEA. Chavez people are killing human beings! last nigth a 17 years old girl died because that bastard put a bullet in her head :mad: Theres no rigth to do this! i´m very sorry to see what is going on here! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/73 "2002-12-07T20:13:13Z")
THis is bad, however: if you don’t follow the rule of law, unsupported accusations like this do not help at all. I repeat: Chavez should go, but removal of him by force will not be the solution, remember that accusation like that will be used by the future repressive regimes to justify killing even more people in the future. Will it be ok if they kill the Chavistas? ---
**Author:** ![ZooMetropolis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e480ec/32.png) [@ZooMetropolis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZooMetropolis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/74 "2002-12-07T20:19:25Z")
Of course this is as bad. Killing is not the solution, I agree. But you don’t expect the people to stay in their homes, sitting and playing cards while Chavez runs the country down the toilet. That’s the current situation. Everyone is tired of him. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/75 "2002-12-07T20:23:19Z")
Little tip, **Chumpsky.** When choosing whether to believe what is true vs. what is politically expedient, it’s generally preferable to choose the truth. Make a note of it. Also, calling people liars in GD is a pretty good way of getting slid out of town on a greased rail. Of course, that’ll probably just feed your persecution complex… ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/76 "2002-12-07T20:27:46Z")
The latest reports show that 30% of the population still supports him, do not say that everybody is not, my point stands that what the proponents of taking him by force and their followers, will make the situation worse. Remember: dealing later with a sizable group of people that will think they were robbed of their choice (a bad one, but still) will generate worse violence later. Better to show them in an election that they, the followers of Chavez, have no support were it counts: at the election booth. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/77 "2002-12-07T20:29:45Z")
That last reply was for **ZooMetropolis** ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/78 "2002-12-07T20:51:22Z")
I wholeheartedly agree with you **GIGO** , taking down Chavez by force is not the right thing to do. Not another coup. However, I believe the people have a right to protest, that’s what they’re doing, they are asking Chavez to leave, if he had a gram of brain hew would have done so. I believe (so I’ve heard) that there is another constitutional recourse available to out him: a referendum. The problem seems to be (correct me if I am wrong) that it is not available until next year. ---
**Author:** ![RobertTB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@RobertTB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RobertTB)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/79 "2002-12-07T20:54:40Z")
If the people of Venezuala believe that their gov’t is inept/corrupt enough, of course they have the moral right to overthrow it. A non-violent removal would be ideal (do they have impeachment in Venezuala?), but barring that, pitchforks and torches ahoy! ---
**Author:** ![Ace\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Ace\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace_Face)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/80 "2002-12-07T20:56:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Wha-? > > We wouldn’t have known what Chile would have been like under Allende? Yes we do! He was in power for three years! > \*\* Yes, but under covert U.S. hostility from the start, which was my whole point. Unless you can perform some kind of historical experiment in which Chile does _not_ face hosility from the moment Allende is elected, we will never know just how effective the U.S. was in destabilizing the Chilean economy. > [@](#): > > December 4, 1970: Department of State, Memorandum for Henry Kissinger on Chile: In response to a November 27 directive from Kissinger, an inter-agency Ad Hoc Working Group on Chile prepared this set of strategy papers covering a range of possible sanctions and pressures against the new Allende government. These included a possible diplomatic effort to force Chile to withdraw – or be expelled – from the Organization of American States as well as consultations with other Latin American countries “to promote their sharing of our concern over Chile.” The documents show that \*\* the Nixon administration did engage in an invisible economic blockade against Allende, intervening at the World Bank, IDB, and Export-Import bank to curtail or terminate credits and loans to Chile before Allende had been in office for a month. \*\*Source: Peter Kornbluh, National Security Archive, CHILE: DECLASSIFIED U.S. DOCUMENTS ON PINOCHET AND THE 1973 COUP [Cite](http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/chile2.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818.md?page=5)