# Venezuela's Political Situation **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818 "2002-12-06T00:13:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ace\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/858c86/32.png) [@Ace\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace_Face)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/81 "2002-12-07T21:00:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ace\_Face \* > \*\*we will never know just how effective the U.S. was in destabilizing the Chilean economy. \*\* Or, more accurately, to what extent Chile’s economic woes were due to U.S. actions. ---
**Author:** ![ZooMetropolis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e480ec/32.png) [@ZooMetropolis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZooMetropolis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/82 "2002-12-07T21:00:56Z")
That’s correct **Mighti\_Girl**. The opposition tried to call a consultive referendum (because they don’t want to wait till august 2003, who knows what that lunatic does). There were nearly 2 million signatures gathered to accept the referendum. It was only consultive, and the question would have been “Should Chavez leave the presidency?”. But the CNE didn’t approved it. That’s why we are kinda angry. Why is he afraid of calling elections, or even the referendum? Is he afraid of losing? IMHO, yes. ---
**Author:** ![ZooMetropolis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e480ec/32.png) [@ZooMetropolis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZooMetropolis)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/83 "2002-12-07T21:26:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by ZooMetropolis_ > That’s correct Mighti\_Girl. Oops, I meant **Mighty\_Girl** , sorry. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/84 "2002-12-07T22:03:51Z")
And IMHO the oposition are not confident that he will lose. not waiting for elections shows lack of confidence. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/85 "2002-12-07T22:08:51Z")
And don’t ignore Ace\_Face point: it is very, very, naïve to ignore external forces involved in this mess. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/86 "2002-12-07T22:38:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **GIGObuster** \* > And IMHO the oposition are not confident that he will lose. not waiting for elections shows lack of confidence. Not necessarily, it could also mean that the opposition fears they will not survive (in an economic sense) all the way to next year. If he doesn’t fear a vote, why not say yes to a referendum? I am pretty confident it is because he can’t win with 70% of the population against him. Of course external forces play a role, they always do, in both sides. Chavez has been supported by virtuall ALL Latin American governments. When the first coup happened it occurred during a meeting of Latin American presidents, they unanimously condemned it and critiziced the Bush administration for failing to show their comdenation of the overthrowing of a democratically elected government. So there you have, there’s support on both sides. I don’t know the Venezuelan constitution, but I am pretty sure that there must be a way (with Chavez’s cooperation?) to out him in a way that is constitutional and save democracy in Venezuela. I hope a group of Venezuelas don’t do what Chavez did when he tried to overthrow a democratically elected government. But some say that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2002, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/87 "2002-12-07T23:13:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RobertTB \* > \*\*A non-violent removal would be ideal (do they have impeachment in Venezuala?), but barring that, pitchforks and torches ahoy! \*\* Of course you do realize that in the Frankenstein tale, the peasants ignorance of the nature of the monster, was the reason of the torches? 😉 Now I remember were I saw this attitude: this is exactly what the extreme left in the US is saying about Bush: we cannot trust this un-elected guy with the power of the presidency, we should impeach him, we should revolt, etc, etc. Somehow after seeing what is happening in Venezuela I would say that this is not the solution. Even I believe Bush will do lots of harm in the next 2 years without checks on his power. But this is no reason to boot him by force. In Venezuela the strike is causing this unrest, we blame the unrest on Chavez, then he will be removed from power. But as **sailor** did in the last discussion I see that the supporters of this removal forget that other people are supporting Chavez in the government at large. I see no other way for the new rulers but to deal with them in a way that will make Pinochet look like a kindergarten cop. And in that case I see the OEA not lifting a finger to stop it. Will you do something about it if it happens **Zoo**? ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/88 "2002-12-08T00:07:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mighty\_Girl \* > \*\*Aristide: “The white and mulatos don’t love you like I do. They don’t have the color of your skin, nor your hair, like I do. I love you. They despise you”. All this while Haiti’s production infrastructure has collapsed, capital is fleeing and poverty is worse than ever. Never mind that Aristide is a crook, and a drug lord. \*\* OK. This is getting ridiculous. This thread is just thick will lies. Do you have any evidence to back up this statement? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/89 "2002-12-08T00:23:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GIGObuster \* > But as **sailor** did in the last discussion I see that the supporters of this removal forget that other people are supporting Chavez in the government at large. I am totally confused by this. I have no idea what you mean but just to clarify and confirm what I have said: I have said Chávez has managed to divide the people of Venezuela and I have given my opinion that he is following in the footsteps of Castro. I have never given any opinion on what is the best way to deal with the situation but I agree with you that military coups are not a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/90 "2002-12-08T00:25:46Z")
Evidence to what? His statement? I saw it on TV. It was widely reported by the media, if you speak Spanish I can point you to a newspaper that reported it. Him being a crook and involved in drug trafficking? I don’t have proof, but I have read my share about it (I’ll try to find a cite). BTW, did you know that the US is sending 8000 (possibly more) troops to the Dominican-Haitian frontier, guess why? Too much “stuff” crossing the border and heading for the US. Can you tell me what Aristide have done for Haiti. Watch your steps, I know Haiti very well. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/91 "2002-12-08T00:27:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cervaise \* > \*\*Oh, and in general response to **ZooMetropolis** , regarding the question, what is the international press saying: Not very much at all, at least not on the front pages or on television. If I didn’t have those two friends to keep me filled in, I probably wouldn’t even know there was a crisis in Venezuela. The sad fact is that the news in the U.S. tends to be about that which has a direct and immediate effect on our lives, and, for better or for worse, Venezuelan affairs don’t even show up on the radar screen. \*\* The Houston Chronicle today had something about three protestors being gunned down on the front page, IIRC. The article said that many Venezualens fear Chavez becoming a leftist dictator. Is this accurate, **Zoo?** ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/92 "2002-12-08T00:27:17Z")
That was for Comrade **Chumpsky** ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/93 "2002-12-08T00:28:34Z")
Actually, **Ace** , we DID get to see Nicaragua under the Sandinistas-who managed to hold power until they were VOTED out of office. Unless, you mean, without them being plagued by the contras. And yes, the US played a huge role in Latin American history-but, that doesn’t mean Castro’s a saint. Or Chavez, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/94 "2002-12-08T00:30:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*You are a liar. You stated, “All who could left the island.” Obviously a blatant lie. > > Oh, and you might have noticed that there are quite a few more people trying to escape from such capitalist paradises as Haiti, Mexico, Guatemala, etc., despite the fact that Cubans are granted automatic amnesty if they reach U.S. soil. > No, the ignorant think they know this. And the class warriors propagate it every chance they get. You see, they just can’t stand the fact that a country has liberated itself from capitalist tyranny and isn’t aching to have the chains put back on. > > I really wonder if you have actually been to Cuba. Or, if you have, what kind of ideological blinders you must have on. Or, if you are just lying. Upon a moment’s reflection, given your blatant lies, the latter seems most likely. \*\* Cuba IS a police state. More than 4,000 people have been executed without trial, and hundreds more have “disappeared.” And then there’s those who are caught trying to leave… ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/95 "2002-12-08T00:33:13Z")
It is kind of interesting to watch the hysteria with which the capitalist class reacts when a leader takes power who works for the poor. You will notice that there is no criticism of rightists who drive their countries into the ground, enriching the few at the expense of the many. So, there is lots and lots of criticism for Allende, but none, I noticed, for Pinochet. It is assumed that the natural state of things is when the vast majority are miserably poor, and the privileged few run things for their own benefit. That is just like a law of nature or something. And, when this is challenged, you are accused of being “unrealistic” or “too idealistic” and so on. Actually, the degree to which the capitalists unite against people like Chavez or Castro reminds me of how the ruling class in Rome united against Julius Ceasar when he started to make some democratic reforms in Rome. Probably you are wondering what in the hell I am talking about. Undoubtedly, a few years ago I would have reacted the same way. Caesar a democrat? If you are interested in this subject, I highly recommend listening to this talk by Michael Parenti: [A Republic Against Caesar](http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=2285) ---
**Author:** ![Chumpsky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9a140/32.png) [@Chumpsky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chumpsky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/96 "2002-12-08T00:34:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daoloth \* > \*\*Cuba IS a police state. More than 4,000 people have been executed without trial, and hundreds more have “disappeared.” And then there’s those who are caught trying to leave… \*\* I know this begins to sound like a broken record, but… You are a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/97 "2002-12-08T00:34:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*It is kind of interesting to watch the hysteria with which the capitalist class reacts when a leader takes power who works for the poor. You will notice that there is no criticism of rightists who drive their countries into the ground, enriching the few at the expense of the many. \*\* _That’s because this isn’t a thread about rightists! It’s a thread about Venezuela!_ ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/98 "2002-12-08T00:35:17Z")
Aren’t homosexuals in Cuba put into prison as well, or prison farms? ---
**Author:** ![Daoloth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/82dd89/32.png) [@Daoloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daoloth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/99 "2002-12-08T00:36:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chumpsky \* > \*\*I know this begins to sound like a broken record, but… > > You are a liar. \*\* Maybe because your beliefs are like a broken record? But I digress. [Here](http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat6.htm#Cuba59) is my cite on Castro’s tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818/100 "2002-12-08T00:45:03Z")
So, this is a Everybody Is a Liar But **Chumpsky** thread? I was starting to feel left out, you hadn’t called me a liar till now. Coming from you sounds like music to my ears. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venezuelas-political-situation/140818.md?page=6)