# Vengeance thy name is...Buffy 10/22 (SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 23, 2002, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450 "2002-10-23T01:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/81 "2002-10-25T00:58:30Z")
FX just started in on S3 again, and I’ve noticed they seem to be skipping a lot of episodes. Although, it also seems that the episodes they show seem to be timed so that key plot points from earlier seasons are shown on Monday night when they resurface in S7. Xander’s Lie being among them (Becoming was Monday’s FX double header, if memory serves). Not real sympathetic to Xander on this point, 'course I’m not a Xander fan anyway, although the character seems to be changing for the better in this current season. If Xander had told Buffy that Willow was trying the curse again, instead of going for the outright kill, Buffy would probably tried to draw Angel away from the Acathla-rock and stalled for time. Don’t know it Spike would have been much help in that regard, he seemed kind of busy with Dru, but it might have been worth a try. Too bad Whistler didn’t hang around, BTW. I liked the character, and it would have been neat to have him pop in every now and again in S3, especially while Angel was recovering from his trip to Hell. Something has been playing around my brain about Spike the last day or so. It’s that sentence he can’t quite seem to finish… Remember the last five minutes of “Beneath You”, when he said, “I wanted to be the kind of man who would never…a kind of man”, then in Selfless, when TETD-Buffy told him “I can help you”, he said, “I could never ask. Not after… I could never ask.” I’m starting to think that maybe a key factor in Spike’s final redemption will be his finally being able to admit, out loud, that he tried to rape Buffy. I certainly think it will be a factor in Buffy’s being able to forgive him. And where the hell is Clem? I want to see Clem!!! Five episodes into the season already and no Clem! What’s up with the lack of Clemmage? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/82 "2002-10-25T03:23:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I, for one, was glad when Buffy killed Angel. He was not a Big Bad but a Big Bore, and his removal from the show was a true blessing Me too!!! You know what I wish? I wish thta she killed Angel as soon as she discovered he was a vampire. But then, if we didn’t have Angel, we wouldn’t have AtS, and then we wouldn’t have super-hot Wesley, so you know, I guess he served his purpose. ---
**Author:** ![elf6c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c57346/32.png) [@elf6c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elf6c)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/83 "2002-10-25T14:18:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Me too!!! You know what I wish? I wish thta she killed Angel as soon as she discovered he was a vampire. And of course if that principle were established early in the series, then Spike would have been all dusty and gone. Can’t have that now. . . . 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/84 "2002-10-25T14:39:53Z")
Miller > [@](#): > > Hell, what were the odds of the spell even working? Willow was not very good at magic at that point. Her spells almost never worked, she’d already failed at the ritual once, and she would have failed again if something hadn’t intervened. Willow did not fail in her first attempt at the curse. She was interrupted by a Dru and her gang. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/85 "2002-10-25T15:07:14Z")
True, re: Spike. But here’s the thing. I hate Angel _so_ much thta I might accept a Buffyverse w/o Spike if that meant a Buffyverse without Angel… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/86 "2002-10-25T18:59:31Z")
I could never accept a Spike-less Buffyverse. Not ever. Not even if it meant that I had to put up with a dozen Angels that got pulled in from alternate Buffyverses. A Buffyverse without Spike is like, well, I don’t know what it’s like, but whatever it is like, I don’t like it a lot more than I don’t like Angel. I mean, really, Angel is boring, so what? Ignore him, he’ll get his own show and go away. But Spike is so… yum, and he adds color and vibrance and peroxidedness to an otherwise dark and gloomy Buffyverse. BTW, **pepperlandgirl** , where do you get your spoilers? ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/87 "2002-10-25T19:58:09Z")
> [@](#): > > **True, re: Spike. But here’s the thing. I hate Angel so much thta I might accept a Buffyverse w/o Spike if that meant a Buffyverse without Angel…** Pepper, sweetie, I want you to take a deep breath and think about what you just said. Angel hating, like magic, is perfectly right and natural, but you have just pulled a Rack and twisted it into something evil and wrong. 😃 Thea, I am with you 700% on admission of the attempted rape being the key to resolving this mess. Granted, I’d bet money that this solution won’t lead to a Spuffy future, but I can easily see ME taking things in that direction [sub][sup]And I didn’t even hear that suggestion of Spillowness you made. Nope. Lalala. That way lies madness.[/sub][/sup] Anyway, the ep was preempted in my area because the Pistons were doing some damn thing, so I only got to watch it last night (Nice KaZaa. Shiny KaZaa.) Emma is _amazing_ in this one! I read what you guys said about her being great and all, but wow! Great! I can’t believe this show doesn’t get more ecognition in the acting department. [sub][sup]Or any department at all, for that matter. Grumble grumble.[/sub][/sup] ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/88 "2002-10-25T20:25:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Juniper200 \* > \*\*Emma is _amazing_ in this one! \*\* Plus, I couldn’t help noticing another amazing thing about Ms. Caulfield: her fantastic ass. Goddam! That’s one sweet tush. She needs to wear tight jeans more often, not just when she’s fighting Buffy. ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/89 "2002-10-25T20:32:14Z")
Juniper, how did you get to see it? I thought UPN50 wasn’t showing it until Sunday. Love the Pistons, but preempting Buffy for preseason basketball is just plain silly. Unfortunately, this kind of stuff happens all year long. UPN50 carries both the Red Wings and the Pistons so literally half of the season is switched to random time slots. Drives me crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/90 "2002-10-25T20:58:05Z")
I went to [www.divx.com](http://www.divx.com) to download a Divx player. Then I downloaded a spyware-free version of a popular peer-to-peer file sharing program, which I will not name because board higher-ups frown on file sharing discussions. Then I searched said p2p program for a Divx copy of the the episode. Easy as pie! Oooh, sudden episode insight! Spike says “I could never ask…” when Buffy confronts him in the basement. He won’t ask her for help because he sees himself in a kind of botomless spiritual debt to her because of the rape. But when he tells her that he doesn’t have anywhere else to go, it’s like he admits that, while he won’t ask for her help, he’ll accept help if she’s willing to offer it. That’s kind of like progress, right? He’s not necessarily an Attonement Machine–he’s trying to let them interact on other levels again. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/91 "2002-10-25T20:59:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\* > Plus, I couldn’t help noticing another amazing thing about Ms. Caulfield: her fantastic ass. Goddam! That’s one sweet tush. She needs to wear tight jeans more often, not just when she’s fighting Buffy. \*\* Actually, I meant to say something along these lines as well. Did it seem to anyone else that the women’s clothes in this one were a bit more revealing than usual? I’m pretty sure I saw Emma’s nipple when she was wearing that tank top. And Willow’s outfit was more form-fitting than she usually wears too. Not that I’m complaining, mind you!😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/92 "2002-10-25T21:35:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Juniper200 \* > \*\* > > Thea, I am with you 700% on admission of the attempted rape being the key to resolving this mess. Granted, I’d bet money that this solution won’t lead to a Spuffy future, but I can easily see ME taking things in that direction [sub][sup]And I didn’t even hear that suggestion of Spillowness you made. Nope. Lalala. That way lies madness.[/sub][/sup] > > \*\* There must be a Spuffy future. There _will_ be a Spuffy future. But it’s more than just the admission on Spike’s part of what he’s done. He has already tacitly admitted to it. He knows he tried to rape Buffy. The whole rest of the Scooby gang knows he tried to rape Buffy. He obviously feels very, very bad about having tried to rape Buffy. What he needs to do iis be able to say **out loud** that he tried to rape Buffy. With someone (not TETDITB) around to hear it. Preferably Buffy herself. Then have a good cry afterward. Then, she will look on him with forgiveness and everyone (except Xander, who I don’t think has it in his nature) will forgive and love and he will be loved. After that, the main obstacle I see to Spuffyness is Spike’s own feelings of guilt over the attempted rape. Will he be able to touch Buffy (or be touched by Buffy, as the case may be) without the memory of that awful bathroom scene replaying itself in his mind? Oh, and it’s nice to see that someone whose favorite charity doesn’t stand to benefit financially from my being wrong still remembers my Fearless Prediction of Spillowness. ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/93 "2002-10-25T22:04:42Z")
> [@](#): > > What he needs to do iis be able to say out loud that he tried to rape Buffy. With someone (not TETDITB) around to hear it. Preferably Buffy herself. Yeah, that was what I meant by “admission.” (I’m Precision-In-Language Girl today!) He has to say it to her. She’ll hear it and gloat for a while, then she’ll keep gloating but she’ll feel bad about gloating because his loyalty won’t waver despite said gloating. And then he will be loved. (Warning: some statements made in this post may come true only in my fantasy alternate Buffy universe. Void where prohibited. Some restrictions apply.) ---
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/94 "2002-10-25T22:05:48Z")
> [@](#): > > ## _Originally posted by Weird\_Al\_Einstein_ quote: > > ## Originally posted by Saltire In fact, that’s always been a continuity problem. Smashing the amulet was supposed to reverse all her past wishes, according to Giles. There should have been major changes to the world, due to reversed wishes from the 11 centuries of her career. And we wouldn’t have had the pissed-off wish-victim that gave Xander the bad visions in the wedding episode. > > I’m really glad someone else has noticed this, I’ve been harping on it since “Hell’s Bells”. This is a huge continuity error that marred my enjoyment of an otherwise fine ep. Not to mention, Buffy didn’t have to kill her, just destroy her power source, as Giles did in “The Wish”. I guess they are just completely ignoring that episode now. Other people, on this and other boards, have noted this “continuity error,” but the thing is, there is no continuity error. We never saw any other Anyanka wish reversed except for the Big Reversal. The only “evidence” that destruction of the amulet would reverse all her past wishes, rather than (as happened) her most recent wish was the word of Giles. Giles (please don’t strike me down) has been wrong before. Generally speaking, I don’t consider something to be a continuity error unless it something that actually happened conflicts with another thing that actually happened. Merely talking about it doesn’t count. Sua Sua ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/95 "2002-10-25T22:45:57Z")
Ok, you’re right. Now tht I think about it, I realze that I too will gladly accept a dozen Angels if it means Spike gets to stay. I gte my spoilers from [www.spoilerslayer.com](http://www.spoilerslayer.com), and the spoilerboard at [www.angelicslayer.com](http://www.angelicslayer.com). THere is a Yahoo group called THe Stakehouse that deals with spoilers but mostly speculation. EC does have a nice ass, but she’s got a great set of boobs too. > [@](#): > > Oh, and it’s nice to see that someone whose favorite charity doesn’t stand to benefit financially from my being wrong still remembers my Fearless Prediction of Spillowness. Spike was originally going to be paired with Willow…until they saw his amazing chemistry with Buffy and decided to run with that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/96 "2002-10-25T23:25:41Z")
Dru/Willow!!! Think about it. Don’t stop because it hurts. Ok good. Now think about it some more. It is perfect. “The magpies say they want to eat strawberries, but I’m going to keep them all for myself.” ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/97 "2002-10-25T23:32:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > **EC does have a nice ass, but she’s got a great set of boobs too.** I’ve noticed EC’s rack too, but I guess I’m an ass man. That tightly wrapped gluteal package she was wielding was doing more damage than those demonic-powered fists could ever do. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\* > Spike was originally going to be paired with Willow…until they saw his amazing chemistry with Buffy and decided to run with that. \*\* That first scene after he got the chip in his head where he tried to bite Willow kinda foreshadows this, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/98 "2002-10-25T23:48:00Z")
Psssst! The Tim! [Ask](http://members.fortunecity.com/kissorkill/willowdrusilla.html) [and](http://wls.htmlplanet.com/authors/inell/wo/no-looking-back-1.htm) [ye](http://badgirls.fishonnastick.com/crimson) [shall](http://www.nearheralways.com/willow_drusilla.html) [receive](http://www.fireicearchive.com/nova/moving.htm) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/99 "2002-10-26T02:40:04Z")
“The only “evidence” that destruction of the amulet would reverse all her past wishes, rather than (as happened) her most recent wish was the word of Giles.” And, **SuaSponte** , let’s not forget that the evidence was in the Alternate Buffyverse… perhaps in the “real” Buffyverse it doesn’t work that way? Wait a second… let me try… I think I can grasp that straw if you can’t… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/100 "2002-10-26T03:33:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Juniper200 \* > \*\*Psssst! The Tim! > > [Ask](http://members.fortunecity.com/kissorkill/willowdrusilla.html) [and](http://wls.htmlplanet.com/authors/inell/wo/no-looking-back-1.htm) [ye](http://badgirls.fishonnastick.com/crimson) [shall](http://www.nearheralways.com/willow_drusilla.html) [receive](http://www.fireicearchive.com/nova/moving.htm) \*\* Well. Um. Ya. There just isn’t a combo out there that hasn’t been tried is there? Hell I bet if one looked not so hard they’d find Spike/Giles stuff out there. Note that this is not an invitation to find it. Spiles Buffy-verse would be horrifying in the extreme. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450.md?page=6)