# Vengeance thy name is...Buffy 10/22 (SPOILERS) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 23, 2002, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450 "2002-10-23T01:28:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/101 "2002-10-26T04:15:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JohnT \* > \*\*“The only “evidence” that destruction of the amulet would reverse all her past wishes, rather than (as happened) her most recent wish was the word of Giles.” > > And, **SuaSponte** , let’s not forget that the evidence was in the Alternate Buffyverse… perhaps in the “real” Buffyverse it doesn’t work that way? > > Wait a second… let me try… I think I can grasp that straw if you can’t… \*\* I think I might be able to reach a little further. Clearly, Vengeance Demons have some form of temporal control. They can alter events in the past to change the present, as was shown in Anya’s first appearance. Anya, as we saw last episode, is one of the oldest and most experienced Vengeance Demons. When her amulet was destroyed in the alterna-Buffyverse, a tremendous amount of harm and mayham was undone. D’Hofryn, Halfrek, and the other vengeance demons have to bust their asses, going back in time and setting wrong what’s gone right. Sort of Quantum Leap meets Charlie’s Angels, but evil. The last wish, which involves alternate realities and all sorts of paradoxes with all the other work they’re doing is too much of a mess to sort out, and by this point they’re pretty pissed at Anya and aren’t interested in giving her her power center back, so she remains a powerless mortal. While I’m here, I’ve got some thoughts on the revelation that vengeance demons have sould. Apparently, vengeance demons all start out as mortals. In the process of becoming demons, they sell their souls to D’Hofryn. D’Hofryn apparently keeps them. Maybe he uses them as doilies, or trades them with his friends like Pokemon cards. When he killed Halfrek, he incinerated both her body and her soul. They just didn’t happen to be in the same place at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/102 "2002-10-26T04:26:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Otto \* > \*\*No one in the Buffyverse knew about smashing the amulet. It was alt-Giles who did the research and, presumably, our Giles took the reference with him to England (or else Dark Willow drained it last year). Willow does know that Anya values the amulet (because Anya enlisted her help in an attempt to recover it) but doesn’t know why exactly. Anya was clearly shown wearing a duplicate amulet several times after resuming her VD duties and, as far as I could tell, was still wearing it after Halfric was toasted. \*\* True, Buffy, Xander and Willow don’t know that. But D’Hoffryn and Anya certainly do. Yet, he was the one that said that reversing one minor slaughter was a major thing. Neither he nor she brought up the amulet as a way to undo her actions. Personally, I think it would have been a great ending for Anya to have destroyed her own power center in order to bring back the frat boys. Only slightly weaker than agreeing to let the boss kill her (which is, after all, what _she_ thought she was agreeing to). Just imagine the look on D’Hoffryn’s face when she did that right in front of him. He could still have a cool menacing speech, but Halfrek would still be around to interact with William/Spike. By the way, Halfrek was a vengeance demon at the time of Spike’s vamping. In one of the recent episodes, Anyanka and Halfrek referred to things they’d done together in the Crimean War. Since that war ended in 1856, and Spike once said he was 126 years old, she was ‘on the job’ before William was born. I’m hoping that they’ll reveal that Halfrek assumed the guise of Cecily as part of someone’s vengeance. How that came about would be a great bit of the mystery that is the Platinum Vampire. On the other hand, I’ll accept the rationalization that Giles source was wrong when it said destroying the amulet would undo all her wishes. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/103 "2002-10-26T04:48:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Hell I bet if one looked not so hard they’d find Spike/Giles stuff out there. Note that this is not an invitation to find it. Spiles Buffy-verse would be horrifying in the extreme. One doesn’t have to look hard at all. As a matter of fact…uh…wait, I’ve already said too much haven’t I? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Frink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Mr.Frink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Frink)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/104 "2002-10-26T05:19:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Thea Logica \* > \*\*FX just started in on S3 again, and I’ve noticed they seem to be skipping a lot of episodes. Although, it also seems that the episodes they show seem to be timed so that key plot points from earlier seasons are shown on Monday night when they resurface in S7. Xander’s Lie being among them (Becoming was Monday’s FX double header, if memory serves). \*\* Yeah…that’s an interesting coincidence. I really doubt that it’s planned, though. _FX_ sets up their **Buffy** schedule months in advance, so I don’t think they have any idea of what episodes any of the new shows will reference. > [@](#): > > \*\*Too bad Whistler didn’t hang around, BTW. I liked the character, and it would have been neat to have him pop in every now and again in S3, especially while Angel was recovering from his trip to Hell. \*\* I totally agree. The Whistler was a very intriguing character & I would’ve liked to have seen more of him. I think he was originally going to be part of **Angel: the Series**. He was going to play his mysterious sidekick–ala Doyle. I’m not exactly sure why they didn’t go with the Whistler–maybe the actor wasn’t available. The actor who played Doyle does bear a striking resemblence to the Whistler–so maybe they were thinking of having him play the Whistler. Anyone know if there’s any truth to the rumors that the guy who played Doyle was so miserable to work with, that he was killed off just to get rid of him? 'Tis a shame…I really liked Doyle. But, it worked out pretty well in the end. We got Wesley back…and his character’s growth & development has been utterly fantastic to watch! ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/105 "2002-10-26T05:33:53Z")
> [@](#): > > One doesn’t have to look hard at all. As a matter of fact…uh…wait, I’ve already said too much haven’t I? Well, yeah, but I’m glad you said it before I had the chance to. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/106 "2002-10-26T19:45:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Hell I bet if one looked not so hard they’d find Spike/Giles stuff out there. Note that this is not an invitation to find it. Spiles Buffy-verse would be horrifying in the extreme. Buffy- "How bored were you last year? Giles- “I watched ‘Passions’ with Spike. Let us never speak of it.” I don’t think I’ll be looking for Spiles fanfic. The thought of the two hottest male characters on the show… I just don’t want to think about it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/107 "2002-10-26T20:02:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saltire \* > \*\* > By the way, Halfrek was a vengeance demon at the time of Spike’s vamping. In one of the recent episodes, Anyanka and Halfrek referred to things they’d done together in the Crimean War. Since that war ended in 1856, and Spike once said he was 126 years old, she was ‘on the job’ before William was born. I’m hoping that they’ll reveal that Halfrek assumed the guise of Cecily as part of someone’s vengeance. How that came about would be a great bit of the mystery that is the Platinum Vampire. > > \*\* Actually, in “Fool for Love”, it was revealed that Spike was vamped in 1880, and William seems to have been about in his early twenties at the time. Which would have put him at about 140 or so, give or take a couple of years, at the time of the Great Dorm-room Willow fiasco. Why somebody who’s immortal would feel the need to lie about his age is beyond me. Spike’s age has been a running continuity flaw throughout the series. In “School Hard”, Giles, after a bit of research, puts Spike’s age at “Barely two hundred”, so, figure high 190’s to 205. Then, in “The Initiative”, he tells Willow, “I’m only a hundred and twenty-six”. Already covered “Fool for Love”. This is not something I think about much, at least not while I’m watching scenes in which James Marsters isn’t wearing a shirt. :)~ ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/108 "2002-10-26T21:17:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t think I’ll be looking for Spiles fanfic. The thought of the two hottest male characters on the show… > > I just don’t want to think about it. 😕 Why not? Sex is hot. Spike is hot. GIles is hot. It stands to reason that sex between Spike and Giles would, in fact, be hot. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/109 "2002-10-27T01:55:37Z")
Reason has nothing to do with it. On a fundamental, biological, cellular, even molecular level, the thought of Spike and Giles is just… eeeeeewwwwwww. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/110 "2002-10-27T03:36:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Thea Logica \* > \*\* The thought of the two hottest male characters on the show… > > I just don’t want to think about it. \*\* Precisely why I _do_ think about it. How 'bout a link **pepperlandgirl**? ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/111 "2002-10-27T03:38:08Z")
I’ll look for one. I read all my Spike/Giles slash on [fanfiction.net](http://fanfiction.net) and they no longer allow NC-17 stories. It makes very sad. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/112 "2002-10-27T04:41:22Z")
Ok, I found a [Spike/Angel/Giles site](http://www.squashduck.com/~ltd/spikegilesangelmain.htm). I haven’t read most of it, just enough to know that it wasn’t written by some 14 year old girl (or boy). I haven’t read all the stories on [The Giles Slash archive](http://perian.slashcity.org/gilesslash/archivem.html), just the _The Paving Stone Series_, which is pretty good…even believable! (Well, as believable as Spike/Giles fic can be.) ---
**Author:** ![Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c67d28/32.png) [@Weird\_AL\_Einstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weird_AL_Einstein)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/113 "2002-10-27T08:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* > \*\* > > 😕 > Why not? Sex is hot. Spike is hot. GIles is hot. It stands to reason that sex between Spike and Giles would, in fact, be hot. \*\* Heh heh. The next time someone asks me, “What is it about you straight guys that gets you so turned on by lesbians?”, I’m gonna link to this post :p. ---
**Author:** ![Juniper200](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df788c/32.png) [@Juniper200](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Juniper200)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/114 "2002-10-27T08:33:48Z")
I think we can safely discount Giles’s info in “School Hard.” That number probably came from the crazy council lady who wrote the Spike thesis. I was going to argue that, when he told Willow he was “only 126,” he wasn’t including his human lifespan in the total. It might be one of those vampire things. Besides, William couldn’t do the bitey thing (well, maybe he did, but he didn’t look like that kind of guy to me) so why should William’s years count when Spike was trying to puzzle through the big hurt? So that was what I was _going_ to argue, but then I took a second for a little mental subtraction and realized that counting vampire lifespan, he’d only be 120 when he got his bleachy head chipped. So now he’s making himself six years _older_ which would make a little sense–maybe Big Bad’s trying to make himself seem bigger and badder by adding a few years into the “survived” category. But six is kind of a paltry number when you’re playing that game. And then I start trying to make the numbers work by adding in his human age, which I peg at 28-30 (I mean, sure JM looks a **lot** younger than he really is, but let’s not push it.) And when I try to make those figures reconcile, my head hurts and I want a drink. What was that line my other favorite show said I should just repeat to myself? Ah, yes: “It’s just a show. I should really just relax.” Much better. 🙂 P.S. Way to go, **plg**. Here I was just about to go to bed, and now I have all this Giles/Spike slash all over my monitor and now I’m gonna have to _read_ it. Oh, the things you Dopers put me through! ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/115 "2002-10-27T08:42:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Thea Logica \* > \*\*I don’t think I’ll be looking for Spiles fanfic. The thought of the two hottest male characters on the show… > > I just don’t want to think about it. \*\* Methinks you have missed the point. Now… **Giles/Riley** is something I care not to think about. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/116 "2002-10-27T13:37:25Z")
You people are scaring me. ---
**Author:** ![Trion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ccd318/32.png) [@Trion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trion)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/117 "2002-10-27T14:36:50Z")
Holy Crap! I go away for a couple of weeks and suddenly you guys are posting links to hardcore gay porn! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Asbestos\_Mango](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Asbestos_Mango)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/118 "2002-10-27T16:40:35Z")
Of course, if you’re in the mood for violating the no-crossover rule, there’s… Spike/Fred. No, really, if Spillow isn’t going to be a happenin’ thing, why not Sped? I think they’d make a cute couple. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/119 "2002-10-27T17:14:15Z")
There are a few Spike/Fred fics out there. I don’t read them though, cuz until this point I didn’t watch Angel, so I know nothing about the character of Fred. (Plus, I stick with Spuffy or slash) I found _one_ Spike/Riley fix, (not on purpose!) and I didn’t read it. I have a pretty open mind with most fanfic, but that, that was just crossing a line that shoudl have never, ever been crossed. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2002, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450/120 "2002-10-27T17:15:46Z")
I don’t have my contacts in, so please excuse the typos. (can barely see the screen!) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vengeance-thy-name-is-buffy-10-22-spoilers/133450.md?page=7)