# Venting: How the fuck could permanent freelancing ever be a good deal for an employee? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 26, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667 "2011-09-26T16:50:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/1 "2011-09-26T16:50:55Z")
I’m not talking about _real_ freelancers - 1099 contractors who presumably see some tax-and-flexibility benefits to doing actual contract work. I’m talking about the fucking dipshit organizations such as my wife’s employer that hire people as “full time freelancers,” aka W2 employees with no guaranteed hours or benefits who get totally fucked over in every aspect of their employment other than having taxes withheld (big fucking whoop.) Seriously, that whole fucking system sucks balls, and any manager who makes the decision to implement one like it is an evil shithead with no concern for the humanity of their employees. My wife took the job a year ago, with the understanding that, if she didn’t get close to full time hours, as a “freelancer”, she at least had the flexibility to set her own hours, work from home whenever the hell she wants, and maybe shake loose a few other short term contract jobs here and there to bring some extra money in. She’d probably never get a raise, but there was always the possibility that they would bring her on full time, with real benefits, regular reviews, opportunities for advancement, etc. Ha. Fucking. Ha. Turns out, they want her to be “available at all times.” She’s never been able to get an answer as to what that means, exactly, but in practice, it looks a helluva lot like they want her to sit around at home, off the clock, and to check email every five minutes on the off chance that somebody schedules a meeting or hands her an assignment, at which point she’s expected to drop everything and head to the office, pronto. It’s kinda hard to do anything else when you’re effectively permanently on-call. We could almost live with that aspect of it, IF she worked off a 1099. See, we’d like to have a kid. I get some pretty decent health insurance through my employer, but like many policies, it charges a $400-per-month penalty for any spouse on the plan that has access to another plan at group rates. My wife’s employer, in their infinite “generosity”, offers their “permalancers” access to a $150 high deductible catastrophic coverage plan. They don’t pay any portion of the premiums, of course. And there’s no way in hell to get reasonable maternity coverage for a woman of child bearing years. Again, it wouldn’t be a problem if they’d only pay her via 1099. She asked about it today, and was basically told that it’s too much fucking paperwork for them. Fucking assholes. It’s completely fucking bonkers that, at least from a kid-having perspective, we’re almost better off having her quit her “full time” job to pick up the occasional five hour contract job for extra cash. Don’t even get me in to the brain-dead way we fund fucking health insurance in this country. All of you assholes who killed the public option can go choke on a bag of dicks and pay full price for the ambulance. Sometimes I hate this country. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/2 "2011-09-26T16:54:28Z")
Was this the only job she could get? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/3 "2011-09-26T16:59:03Z")
Sorry, what’s a 1099? Is it even legal to have that kind of arrangement without one? Many countries have a problem with “false self-employed”, but at least if all your self-employment ducks are in a row, you have the possibility of moving to another contract. If the arrangement here is covering a “contractor position” with “employee paperwork”… I suspect both Labor and the IRS might have a few choice things to say. And while most companies think Labor is a joke, they don’t quite have the same opinion about IRS. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/4 "2011-09-26T17:02:14Z")
There’s no reason your insurance people need to know that your wife has access to a group plan. It’s not like they check. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/5 "2011-09-26T17:08:09Z")
> [@spooje](#): > > Was this the only job she could get? Pretty much, given her field. She spent the two years before we met doing the occasional short term contract job while frantically looking for something permanent. And there are dozens, if not hundreds, of people lined up to replace her the moment she quits, so it’s not like she has any leverage. The real pisser is, it could actually be a great opportunity for her if the employment terms and the line managers didn’t suck so hard. She get to work with a lot of rather prestigious clients, and the work is frequently interesting. She was excited as hell to get it, and I’m really proud of her. Everybody there seems to love her work. The company president is actually a second cousin of mine. I’m rather tempted to say a few words at the next family get together, though she’s convinced me to keep my mouth shut for the moment. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/6 "2011-09-26T17:20:41Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Sorry, what’s a 1099? Is it even legal to have that kind of arrangement without one? 1099 is the form used to report income from self employment (among other things.) They’re true freelancers, meaning they pay self employment taxes and the full cost of their payroll taxes, in contrast to traditional employees, who generally report using form W2. While W2 employment doesn’t guarantee access to employer-funded health insurance (nothing in this country does), common practice, at least in professional positions, is to offer insurance to W2 employees who work full time. Essentially, she’s a part-timer on a five-minute leash. Her manager has told her the following two things about her job, literally in the same conversation: “The nice thing about being a perma-lancer is the flexibility. You can come and go as you please.” “I need you to check with me before you work from home or leave early, and if a meeting comes up, I need you to come in.” She tried nailing them down to a set schedule - MWF, or something, which would at least give her time to do other jobs. But then they’d have to actually sit down and think about scheduling shit in advance, which is either too much effort or not part of the “culture.” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/7 "2011-09-26T17:23:20Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > Turns out, they want her to be “available at all times.” She’s never been able to get an answer as to what that means, exactly, but in practice, it looks a helluva lot like they want her to sit around at home, off the clock, and to check email every five minutes on the off chance that somebody schedules a meeting or hands her an assignment, at which point she’s expected to drop everything and head to the office, pronto. IANAL, but this appears to violate the IRS [definition of an independent contractor](http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179115,00.html): > [@](#): > > You are not an independent contractor if you perform services that can be controlled by an employer (what will be done and how it will be done). This applies even if you are given freedom of action. What matters is that the employer has the legal right to control the details of how the services are performed.If an employer-employee relationship exists (regardless of what the relationship is called), you are not an independent contractor and your earnings are generally not subject to Medicare and Social Security Taxes for Self-Employed. [Additional IRS info](http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html): > [@](#): > > Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories:[ol] > [li][Behavioral](http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179111,00.html): Does the company control or have the right to control what the worker does and how the worker does his or her job?[/li][li][Financial](http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179113,00.html): Are the business aspects of the worker’s job controlled by the payer? (these include things like how worker is paid, whether expenses are reimbursed, who provides tools/supplies, etc.)[/li][li][Type of Relationship](http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179116,00.html): Are there written contracts or employee type benefits (i.e. pension plan, insurance, vacation pay, etc.)? Will the relationship continue and is the work performed a key aspect of the business?[/li][/ol]Businesses must weigh all these factors when determining whether a worker is an employee or independent contractor. Some factors may indicate that the worker is an employee, while other factors indicate that the worker is an independent contractor. There is no “magic” or set number of factors that “makes” the worker an employee or an independent contractor, and no one factor stands alone in making this determination. Also, factors which are relevant in one situation may not be relevant in another. > The keys are to look at the entire relationship, consider the degree or extent of the right to direct and control, and finally, to document each of the factors used in coming up with the determination. > **Form SS-8** > > If, after reviewing the three categories of evidence, it is still unclear whether a worker is an employee or an independent contractor, [Form SS-8, Determination of Worker Status for Purposes of Federal Employment Taxes and Income Tax Withholding](http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf) (PDF) can be filed with the IRS. The form may be filed by either the business or the worker. The IRS will review the facts and circumstances and officially determine the worker’s status. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/8 "2011-09-26T17:52:20Z")
I’ve been both a W2 wageslave and a genuine 1099 contractor. Sounds to me like your wife’s employer is _breaking the law_ here, but I am not a labor law lawyer. You could make a call reporting possible violations to your state’s department of labor. If you do so, be very specific. Anything you might have in writing, ask if they want a copy. Of course, this could result in termination of your wife’s employment. That’s technically illegal as well, but I’m assuming they’d be willing to take that chance. After all, even if you make a complaint there’s no guarantee things will go your way, or that the assholes who came up with this won’t try to retaliate. On the other hand, Microsoft lost a crapload of money off this issue some time ago, and the false contractors got some money out of it. Eventually. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/9 "2011-09-26T17:59:47Z")
That sounds really illegal to me, as well as shitty. How can she be called a freelancer? She’s not. It’s worth bearing in mind that someone else might well make a complaint and then your wife’s situation would either improve or she’d lose what work she does get. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/10 "2011-09-26T18:13:10Z")
Uh–you people saying the employer is likely breaking IRS rules may want to read the OP a little closer. The OP’s wife is getting a W-2. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/11 "2011-09-26T18:22:33Z")
You’re right. That wasn’t clear to me. In that case, she just has a shitty job. Suck it up, or quit. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/12 "2011-09-26T18:27:45Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > How the fuck could permanent freelancing ever be a good deal for an employee? It isn’t. Did the employer sell this to your wife as being a better deal _for her_? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/13 "2011-09-26T18:27:58Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Uh–you people saying the employer is likely breaking IRS rules may want to read the OP a little closer. The OP’s wife is getting a W-2. There are limits to what sort of conditions you can impose on a W2 worker, as I’m sure you know. We do not, of course, have the whole story here. However, having an employee fill out a W2 then describing said person as a “freelancer” is deceptive and untrue at the very least. Which is why I suspect all is not legal here. They need to consult someone who knows the law in their state, and with whom they can fully share all the details. It may be it’s just a shitty job arrangement. It may be it’s illegal. Can’t know for sure from here. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/14 "2011-09-26T18:37:57Z")
> [@furt](#): > > It isn’t. Did the employer sell this to your wife as being a better deal _for her_? They try to, though I think it’s mostly what they tell themselves so that they can sleep at night. They’re also fanatical about blowing smoke up the asses of their employees - stuff like holding a quarterly no-holds-barred Friday afternoon bacchanalia (total cost: maybe a few thousand bucks) where they tell everybody how precious and creative and special they are, instead of doing things like giving raises or promoting from within for anything below the director level. And for everybody telling me it’s illegal - nope, it’s all legit. My complaint is that they’re _calling_ her a freelancer, but they’re _treating_ her like a part-time employee with d-list benefits. They’re not breaking the law; they’re just a bunch of execrable assholes. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/15 "2011-09-26T18:38:17Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Uh–you people saying the employer is likely breaking IRS rules may want to read the OP a little closer. The OP’s wife is getting a W-2. Does that fit with not having her taxes withheld? I don’t know that much about the US tax system. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/16 "2011-09-26T18:52:52Z")
Look into the possibility of working under a W4. The proper taxes are withheld, and the circumstances can be set up like a contracted freelancer. One of my clients maintains in their policies that I’m eligible to enroll in their health insurance plan, provided I meet the required number of billable hours, and don’t go without work from the company for more than 45 days. I’m not really familiar with this form, but I’ve been working under 1099s and estimated taxes for almost a decade. This was the first time I filled out a W4 for a contract job, and was surprised to see that what I was eligible for under this form of employment. (I work at home in Michigan, this company is in NYC). Just tossing that out there. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/17 "2011-09-26T19:00:23Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > Does that fit with not having her taxes withheld? I don’t know that much about the US tax system. For the record: her taxes are being withheld, they _are_ paying unemployment insurance, etc, etc. My beef is that, rather than do what any other normal company would do, and call her a Part Time Whatever, they advertised the position (and continue to refer to her as) a “Full Time Freelancer”, when she is neither full-time nor a true freelancer. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/18 "2011-09-26T19:13:04Z")
Well, you’re going to have to call them on it. If they’re going to call her a freelancer, then her answer next time they say to check in is “Sorry, I’ve got another freelance job I have to finish. Is next Monday good for you?” And she should go out and get that other freelance job, if possible. And, if they fire her for this, then it’s pretty obvious that they were breaking the law. (And it’s also time to talk to that second cousin.) ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/19 "2011-09-26T19:25:48Z")
> [@black\_rabbit](#): > > For the record: her taxes are being withheld, they _are_ paying unemployment insurance, etc, etc. > > My beef is that, rather than do what any other normal company would do, and call her a Part Time Whatever, they advertised the position (and continue to refer to her as) a “Full Time Freelancer”, when she is neither full-time nor a true freelancer. As far as I understand it, as I’m a truly self-employed freelancer, if she’s filled out a W2, she’s an employee. If they’re letting her work from home, count that as a perk. Otherwise, she can ask to re-negotiate her terms of employment (go _true_ freelance, get 1099’d or W4), ask for better benefits / a raise, or quit and seek other employment. A Full-Time Freelancer sounds like biznass-speak for here’s a salary with no benefits. Anyway you slice it, it’s a fucking bitch. And believe me, when you work freelance… you’re ALWAYS on call. I much prefer being self-employed, but you’re right, in that this country makes it damn near impossible to forge a career in self-employment/freelance. It’s sad, because the internet, cell phones and computers make working from home much more efficient and sensible in a lot of desk jobs; yet there’s zero incentives for _us…_ just the opposite. _Fuck you, Republicans!_ However, I don’t understand your health insurance scenario though? As a true freelancer, you’re far more limited in insurance options, and pay up the wazoo for even 80/20 coverage. Since you have benefits at your job, why not opt in for that? ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667/20 "2011-09-26T19:26:09Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Well, you’re going to have to call them on it. If they’re going to call her a freelancer, then her answer next time they say to check in is “Sorry, I’ve got another freelance job I have to finish. Is next Monday good for you?” > > And she should go out and get that other freelance job, if possible. > And, if they fire her for this, then it’s pretty obvious that they were breaking the law. > (And it’s also time to talk to that second cousin.) This is good advice, if your wife is prepared to lose this job. Sorry they’re playing fast and loose with employment laws (skirting as close to the edge of them as they can and doing as little as possible for the employees); maybe after your wife gets some experience she can move to a company that won’t be such assholes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-how-the-fuck-could-permanent-freelancing-ever-be-a-good-deal-for-an-employee/597667.md?page=2)