# VENTING ON BIGOTS **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2000, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106 "2000-04-20T19:24:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/21 "2000-04-20T21:58:00Z")
The problem I see is that some use “stupid” when the term “ignorant” is more applicable. Stupid sounds like a mental deficiency that is genetic. It is possible that a college graduate and a high school dropout both started out with the same potential for intelligence, but one learned to use his mind and the other didn’t. Parents have an effect on how their children perceive school. I took school seriously because my parents did. I had a friend who could astound me with her intelligence, but her family didn’t put the same emphasis on school so neither did she and she barely squeeked through. Human history is full of people who rose above poverty because their parents stressed knowledge. Ignorance people can have ignorant children, but it’s not genetic. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/22 "2000-04-20T22:01:00Z")
Now, I want it stated plainly that I never mentioned race or ethnicity, and very firmly believe that they are _completely_ irrelevant to intelligence. That is, there may very well be more stupid whites, blacks, or martians, but I do not in any way accept that it’s _because_ they are white or black or martian. Carry on. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![Odieman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a87d85/32.png) [@Odieman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odieman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/23 "2000-04-20T22:03:00Z")
> [@](#): > > that doesn’t change the fact that many of the rich white kids are the smartest around, and, opening a can of worms, many of the poor kids in the ghettos are the dumbest around. [rant] Let’s see, we are back to the idea that if you make $60,000 a year then you are a much more worthy human being than if you make $30,00 a year. If your company goes broke and you suddenly find yourself below the poverty line then has your intelligence taken a similar drop. One of the indicators you are probably using for a lack of intelligence among poor people is a lack of educational attainment. Well, it’s awfully hard to go to university if your parents are poor. I know, if you work hard you can make a success of your life. Bullshit, it doesn’t always work out that way. Most of the people who put forth that argument have, to quote Molly Ivins, "been born on third base and thought they hit a triple. It’s true that a number of poor people are unintelligent, it’s also true that a similar number of people are rich and unintelligent. Just because your parents are rich does not automatically mean that you are above average. Besides if you focus on education funding and you decide that it is true that increasing funding does not increase performance then why don’t we throw all of the underachievers into one big classroom and let Darwinianism decide who the winner is. [/rant] Keith ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/24 "2000-04-20T22:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Biggirl: > \*\*The viocer said: > On the other hand, there is little relationship between the amount of money spent on public schools and test scores. > > This is total bullcockie. Why send your kids to private school, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to send them to a good college, if it doesn’t matter the amount of money spent on education? > \*\* Why indeed? It’s quality, not quantity that counts in education. You can never safely judge a school based on how much they charge in tuition. If that was the case, then if I’d was a school administrator, I’d just jack up the tuition. I’m not dismissing the idea that the amount of money doesn’t matter. After all, spending more money to hire more teacher so the class sizes can be smaller is a good idea. Whereas spending more money on the higher price text books doesn’t guarantee that the information within will be somehow superior. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/25 "2000-04-20T22:09:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by beakerxf: > \*\* Why indeed? It’s quality, not quantity that counts in education. You can never safely judge a school based on how much they charge in tuition. If that was the case, then if I’d was a school administrator, I’d just jack up the tuition. > > I’m not dismissing the idea that the amount of money doesn’t matter. After all, spending more money to hire more teacher so the class sizes can be smaller is a good idea. Whereas spending more money on the higher price text books doesn’t guarantee that the information within will be somehow superior.\*\* True. And there may be some exceptions. But, you will see a general correlation between the amount of money a school has per student and the quality of education. * * * It’s not the quantity of posts, it’s the quality ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/26 "2000-04-20T22:10:00Z")
Karma, I am neither a troll nor am I stupid. How in the hell did you interpret the statement to mean specifically what _you_ believe. The guy is in fact saying that if you are rich you are smart and if you are poor there is no need to waste too much money trying to educate yourself. Try directing your ire at the point I was making and not at me personally. Unless you are a bigger ass than I originally thought. ---
**Author:** ![KarmaComa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e36b37/32.png) [@KarmaComa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarmaComa)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/27 "2000-04-20T22:10:00Z")
Odieman: You fucking idiot. I said that these were general trends, not all-encompassing rules. By the way, if you make 30,00 a year, you should move to France where that’s an actual number. ---
**Author:** ![beakerxf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc79bd/32.png) [@beakerxf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beakerxf)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/28 "2000-04-20T22:18:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by oldscratch: > \*\* True. And there may be some exceptions. But, you will see a general correlation between the amount of money a school has per student and the quality of education. > > \*\* I totally agree there is a correlation. I just get bothered when I see someone say, “we spend more, therefore it’s better”. Those are the people that vote for politicians who promise more funding for education, but don’t have coherent plans on to use the additional funds effectively. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/29 "2000-04-20T22:25:00Z")
Well, that’s just the point. There is no correlation between test scores and the amount of money dumped into _public_ schools. Unless, as has happened a couple times, the money is spent _specifically to raise test scores_. But pouring money into public schools has not been shown to raise test scores (or knowledge, or intelligence, FTM). And one more caveat (I’m disclaiming all over the place today). I am in no way affiliated with KarmaComa, and would respectfully request that he not be a jerk. Gee, making fun of typos, that’s real cool. :rolleyes: -andros- ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/30 "2000-04-20T22:28:00Z")
Reasoning and understanding in the Pit? What’s going on here? Of course spending money without any idea of what works and what doesn’t is foolish. So is believing if you spend a fortune on your education you will be smart. What some of the more conservative posters are trying to say (and I’m sure they’ll correct me if I’m wrong) is that poor people are stupid and spending money on educating them is a waste. Look at the test scores! They are all stupid! ---
**Author:** ![Odieman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a87d85/32.png) [@Odieman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odieman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/31 "2000-04-20T22:36:00Z")
And that is the idea I’m ranting against. If you don’t spend money on the poor then they sure as hell will have no chance to better themselves. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and the (usually) rich- white-class males will read an article on it yawn and turn the page while muttering about their money being wasted. I’m sorry there is more to life then increasing the size of your bank account. Keith ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/32 "2000-04-20T22:47:00Z")
So, **Biggirl** , do you deny a correlation between stupidity and poverty? Or do you agree that stupid people are less likely to succeed financially? ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/33 "2000-04-20T23:07:00Z")
What I’m am disputing is the cause and effect. Stupid people are poor. This does not mean stupidity causes poverty or poverty causes stupidity. Get it? Now, malnutrition, bad education and under motivation those can cause stupidity. The cause of poverty is lack of money. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/34 "2000-04-20T23:20:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Biggirl: > **What I’m am disputing is the cause and effect. Stupid people are poor. This does not mean stupidity causes poverty or poverty causes stupidity. Get it? > Now, malnutrition, bad education and under motivation those can cause stupidity. > The cause of poverty is lack of money.** MUST…SAY…IT… Good girl Big Girl. sorry. I agree with the first part of your argument. But, does malnutrition et all really cause stupidity, or are peope just unmotivated? Can these “stupid” people become “smart”. * * * It’s not the quantity of posts, it’s the quality ---
**Author:** ![Konrad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f475e1/32.png) [@Konrad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Konrad)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/35 "2000-04-20T23:24:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Anyone giving a moment’s consideration to ideas like, “They must be poor because they’re stupid” has their head so far up their ass it’s a wonder they could be exposed to such idiocy in the first place. Saying that the average poor person is dumber than the average rich person is not the same as saying everyone who is poor is stupid. Come on people, is this really such a contentious issue? Obviously intelligent people will tend _on average_ to do better econmically. Obviously someone who’s a drooling vegetable will tend on average to do worse economically. These aren’t exactly wild assertions. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/36 "2000-04-20T23:37:00Z")
If you are stupid than you are more less likely to succeed. I agree with this statement. If you do not succeed then it is likely you are stupid. I do not agree with this statement. If you are poor you are more likely to be stupid. I do not agree with this statement. If you are poor you are less likely to be stupid. I do not agree with this statement. There are a whole host of reasons why a person is rich or poor. Blaming someone’s poverty on their intelligence is just a rich person’s way of inflating their own worth and rationalizing their self-importance. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/37 "2000-04-20T23:43:00Z")
“get on, get on, that misanthrope train . . .” Again with the cause and effect, **biggirl**! Sure, there are lots of reasons for stupidity (and I’d like to emphasize that I’m not talking about simple ignorance or lack of education, I’m talking about the _inability_ to learn). And there are many reasons for people being poor. Sorry, "they don’t have money’ is just silly. _Why_ don’t they have money? Could just anyone be a nuclear physicist? A neuropsychologist? Hell, a computer programmer? No, no, and no. Do jobs that require no critical thinking or problem-solving skills pay well? Generally, no. (That’s excepting the entertainment and sports industries, though I’d argue that many media figures are successful in part because of their intelligence.) So, job that requires intelligence = high-paying. Job that doesn’t = low paying. Stupid people make less money. Again, obviously there are exceptions. But they remain exceptions and do not negate the basic argument. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2000, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/38 "2000-04-20T23:54:00Z")
Regarding the inheritability of intelligence, try these out; [www.d.umn.edu/~schilton/Articles/Intellig.html](http://www.d.umn.edu/~schilton/Articles/Intellig.html) , [www.crispian.demon.co.uk/q05.htm](http://www.crispian.demon.co.uk/q05.htm) , and [www.margetts.demon.co.uk/intranet/psych/genetic.htm](http://www.margetts.demon.co.uk/intranet/psych/genetic.htm) , see esp “Eysenck and Jensen suggests that 80% of intelligence may be determined genetically with only 20% affected by the environment (the heritability estimate) but others such as Bouchard et al (1990) put it lower at 70% and Loehlin (1989) at about 50%.” Of course, Eysenck (in that third link) has been saying since the 60s that intelligence is inherited . A little background on him: Hans J. Eysenck (1916-1997) Born in Berlin, Hans Eysenck came to Britain in the early 1930’s Went to secondary school and university in London Professor of Psychology, Institute of Psychiatry, Maudsley Hospital, London probably the most influential British psychologist of our time - though there are many more recent who would like to inherit the title! over 40 “popular” books especially on personality and intelligence There’s also [www.p-m-s.freeserve.co.uk/texts/inherit.html](http://www.p-m-s.freeserve.co.uk/texts/inherit.html) > [@](#): > > Cognitive abilities and disabilities. One of the most studied traits in human behavioral genetics is general cognitive ability (IQ). In more than 30 twin studies involving more than 10,000 pairs of twins, identical and fraternal twin correlations averaged 0.85 and 0.60, respectively [5]. The IQ correlation for first-degree relatives living together is about 0.40; for adopted-apart first-degree relatives, the correlation is about 0.20; and for adoptive parents and their adopted children, the correlation is about 0.20. These results, and model-fitting analyses that incorporate all of the date on IQ are consistent with heritabilities of about 50% [6]. The error surrounding this estimate may be as high as 20%, so we can only say with confidence that the heritability of IQ scores is between 30 and 70%. Nonetheless, even if the heritability of IQ scores is at the bottom of this range, it is a remarkable finding. To account for 30% of the variance of anything as complex as IQ scores is a remarkable achievement. Of course, for the other side of the argument: [www.ferris.edu/htmls/academics/syllabi/mehlerbarry/heredi1.htm](http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/academics/syllabi/mehlerbarry/heredi1.htm)[www.ferris.edu/htmls/academics/syllabi/mehlerbarry/ingene1.htm](http://www.ferris.edu/htmls/academics/syllabi/mehlerbarry/ingene1.htm) (many many thanks to **Felice** for the research) -andros- ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/39 "2000-04-21T02:48:00Z")
> [@](#): > > and Jensen suggests I don’t (yet) have a hot button on this guy, but I’m developing a really bad feeling about him. Jensen (one of _Phaedrus_\*'s favorite authorities) has made a number of rather startling claims about IQ that, if true, should radically alter the way we look at IQ scores, race, and society. Unfortunately, he feels that he has resolved all the issues regarding the “reality” of IQ tests, while I think that he has simply found some interesting numbers. (The **Phaedrus** link is a cheap shot that has _no bearing_ on Jensen’s credentials, but it was a shot I simply _could not_ refrain from taking.) Two areas in Jensen’s work that I find interesting are his association of intelligence with response time and his association of IQ with race. He insists on a direct correlation between IQ and reflex/response time, but I have not yet discovered what he defines as response time. (My local library doesn’t have his books and I’m not about to support him by buying them.) He also claims a direct correlation between the “amount” of “white” blood in black people and their IQ’s. For this latter statement, I have found two problems: he does not indicate how he arrived at a knowledge of how much “white” blood is found in any black individual and his broader statements supporting his correlation can be easily defeated with many other sociological interpretations. I find his former assertion rather amusing because I am generally attributed with “better than average” intelligence and my physical response times would embarrass a half-frozen 80-year-old in an opiate-induced stupor. (Both traits run in my family.) * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2000, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106/40 "2000-04-21T02:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Acording to this guy, all we have to do to get rid of poverty is not let poor people breed. Then everyone will be smart and wealthy. Academically speaking, this sounds like ‘natural selection’ to me. You evolutionists have a problem with that? :: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/venting-on-bigots/6106.md?page=3)