# (Very) Ancient Civilizations **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 31, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231 "2012-08-31T05:04:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/41 "2012-09-04T04:25:41Z")
I’ve read that Mount Rushmore is in a very geologically stable area and it’s carved out of material that’s extremely resistant to erosion. I read you could come back in a million years and you could still recognize it as a depiction of four faces. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/42 "2012-09-04T05:10:01Z")
> [@Willcross](#): > > What’s the oldest known large stone statue/structure? The Pyramids maybe? Nope, according to Wiki it’s [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus_of_Bougon) tumulus at the 4700 BC mark, followed by a couple other at the 4500 BC mark (also in France) and a 3900 BC tomb complex (still in France). Oldest actual house still standing is dated 3700 BC and lies [in Scotland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knap_of_Howar). The rest of the [list](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_oldest_buildings_in_the_world) is chock full of tombs, pyramids, tumulus, zigguraths… Kinda weird that our graves last longer than our dwellings, isn’t it ? Weird and a little creepy. I suppose it can be explained by the fact that we tend to leave those alone, while the next generation re-uses the building materials of the previous one to build their own stuff (though that happened to the Egyptian Pyramids too, if I’m not mistaken). [QUOTE=Sage Rat] The flag on the moon would sure throw some people for a loop, though. [/QUOTE] Interesting idea - how long will that thing last ? No bacteria on the Moon (least not until someone decides to terraform it) so we can rule out rot ; no wind either to damage it… I suppose the only thing left is an accurate meteorite strike ? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/43 "2012-09-04T05:51:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’ve read that Mount Rushmore is in a very geologically stable area and it’s carved out of material that’s extremely resistant to erosion. I read you could come back in a million years and you could still recognize it as a depiction of four faces. I could see some strange religions coming out of the rediscovery of Mt. Rushmore out in the middle of nowhere like that. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/44 "2012-09-04T05:52:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Kinda weird that our graves last longer than our dwellings, isn’t it ? Weird and a little creepy. I suppose it can be explained by the fact that we tend to leave those alone, while the next generation re-uses the building materials of the previous one to build their own stuff (though that happened to the Egyptian Pyramids too, if I’m not mistaken). Most cultures also have more or less some commandment to leave dead bodies alone and away from food and water [though some ancient cultures preserved heads and displayed them so that isn’t perfect. Not sure I want Uncle Hugo watching me eat supper …] so people tend to avoid burial locations and locations where bodies are processed like crematory areas and sky burial areas. Also frequently people are either made ritually unclean or are specifically nominated as a body handling class separate from the rest of the community. I find those neolithic underground homes fascinating. I keep thinking that they must be the source of all the elf mounds and underground dwellers like elves, dwarves and gnomes by whatever name they are known. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Ayebaw](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darth_ayebaw/32/9870_2.png) [@Darth\_Ayebaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Ayebaw)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/45 "2012-09-04T07:59:05Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I agree with the first part - signs of previous visits to the moon would remain intact. But would we have necessarily found them? > > Here’s a [map](http://history.nasa.gov/alsj/a11/A11vsMLB.gif) of the area explored by the Apollo 11 mission. To give a sense of the scale, it’s superimposed on a baseball diamond. Multiply it by six missions and that’s how much of the moon we’ve explored. That and some observations from orbit. The observations from orbit would likely be enough if the hypothetical others are around our size or bigger. And you can only get so small and control an open flame, the source of our technology. Like I said, we can see the footpaths, so that’s pretty good resolution. Of course I have no idea if the entire moon was mapped that well or just the landing sites. If it was all mapped around that scale and made public, it’s possible there’d be enough nutjobs looking or aliens or nazis or something that something would turn up given time if there was something to turn up. I do see your point though and agree. Google Earth covers Africa (around the area of the moon iirc) but what woulds your chances be of finding six tiny huts on that continent, much less one, if there was nothing else there and you didn’t know where to look? And of course we’ve inhabited Africa since we’ve been around, and people are still using GE to find new, previously unknown ruins or forests and stuff. It could just be too big. Also, while not on the same scale as others brought forth in this thread, if you’re interested then Göbekli Tepe deserves a mention for sizable ancient stone work, dating back nearly ten millenia, and it’s not unique. It also demonstrates pretty well the idea that if you want something to last, build in stone, then bury it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/46 "2012-09-04T08:53:54Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You could say the exact same thing about mammals. I mean, there’s one exception, but with thousands of thousands of species, that’s hardly statistically significant. Not one exception, a whole branch. And our hairier cousins have _more_ opposable thumbs. > [@Willcross](#): > > What’s the oldest known large stone statue/structure? The Pyramids maybe? How long will they last? There’s this itty bitty fence in China, but it’s newer than the Pyramids. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/47 "2012-09-04T13:21:54Z")
> [@Learjeff](#): > > Well there’s a big difference between how long edifices will last, and how long evidence of civilization will last. > > My guess is the pyramids will outlast most of what we’re building today. > > The only reason that we have existing Roman aquaducts and buildings is that Roman engineers didn’t know the parallelogram of forces, and couldn’t do the math to figure out the minimal structure to serve the purpose. Emperors wanted to do the most with the cash on hand, so they didn’t overbuild for the fun of it: they overbuilt because they didn’t know how to estimate, and they preferred to err on the side of caution rather than risk being a laughing stock. They also didn’t know that elliptical arches would work, and used only circular ones, which end up using more material but I believe should outlast elliptical arches. > > Today, we “know better”, so we generally don’t build things to last millenia. > > Mount Rushmore probably being a good counterexample. Another possible example might be huge dams, but I’m just guessing about that. An interesting example of this is that middle kingdom egyptian pyramids are mostly collapsed into shapeless mounds while old kingdom pyramids are mostly still around. The reason: the egyptians discovered faster and cheaper building methods using a core of rubble and only an outer facing of solid stone. Once the outer facing was looted for building material, the pyramid did not last. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/48 "2012-09-04T13:29:34Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Most cultures also have more or less some commandment to leave dead bodies alone and away from food and water [though some ancient cultures preserved heads and displayed them so that isn’t perfect. Not sure I want Uncle Hugo watching me eat supper …] so people tend to avoid burial locations and locations where bodies are processed like crematory areas and sky burial areas. Also frequently people are either made ritually unclean or are specifically nominated as a body handling class separate from the rest of the community. > > I find those neolithic underground homes fascinating. I keep thinking that they must be the source of all the elf mounds and underground dwellers like elves, dwarves and gnomes by whatever name they are known. Actually, the oldest stone structure currently known is that Turkish temple. [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/gobekli-tepe.html](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/gobekli-tepe.html) It is not always true that the living wish to be seperate from the dead - for example, in one of the earliest cities, Catal Huyuk, burials were typically inside houses: > [@](#): > > The people of Çatalhöyük buried their dead within the village. Human remains have been found in pits beneath the floors and, especially, beneath hearths, the platforms within the main rooms, and under beds. Bodies were tightly flexed before burial and were often placed in baskets or wrapped in reed mats. Disarticulated bones in some graves suggest that bodies may have been exposed in the open air for a time before the bones were gathered and buried. In some cases, graves were disturbed and the individual’s head removed from the skeleton. These heads may have been used in rituals, as some were found in other areas of the community. Some skulls were plastered and painted with ochre to recreate faces, a custom more characteristic of Neolithic sites in Syria and at Neolithic Jericho than at sites closer by. > **[Çatalhöyük](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk)** > > Çatalhöyük (English: Chatalhoyuk /ˌtʃɑːtɑːlˈhuːjʊk/ cha-tal-HOO-yuhk; .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Turkish pronunciation: \[tʃaˈtaɫhœjyc\]; also Çatal Höyük and Çatal Hüyük; from Turkish çatal "fork" + höyük "tumulus") is a tell (a mounded accretion resulting from long-term human settlement) of a very large Neolithic and Chalcolit... The main reason burials typically last longer than dwellings I think is that there is no need to make a burial livable, and livable structures more typically have requirements that are not compatible with lasting a long time - large hollow spaces with openings to the outside, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/49 "2012-09-04T13:35:22Z")
How much evidence do we have of Human Habitation and Civilization from say, between 15,000 and 50,000 years ago? How much time have we spent looking for it? Ok, now how much time have we spent looking for any evidence of anything prior to about 1 million years ago? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/50 "2012-09-04T13:51:29Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > How much evidence do we have of Human Habitation and Civilization from say, between 15,000 and 50,000 years ago? How much time have we spent looking for it? > > Ok, now how much time have we spent looking for any evidence of anything prior to about 1 million years ago? We have lots. Plenty of campsites - for example, this one made of mammoth bones, around 17,000 years old: > **[Ancient Houses Made of Mammoth Bones](https://www.thoughtco.com/mammoth-bone-dwellings-houses-169539)** > > In central Europe about 16,000 years ago, some hunter-gatherers built their houses out of ancient elephant bones. Settlement sites (even ones feating mammoth bones) don’t make all that good copy for non-achaeologists, but cave paintings do, and there are many spectacular examples. > **[Cave painting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_painting)** > > In archaeology, cave paintings are a type of parietal art (which category also includes petroglyphs, or engravings), found on the wall or ceilings of caves. The term usually implies prehistoric origin. These paintings were often created by Homo sapiens, but also Denisovans and Neanderthals; other species in the same Homo genus. Discussion around prehistoric art is important in understanding the history of Homo sapiens and how human beings have come to have unique abstract thoughts. Some point to ... As for looking for stuff more that 1 million years old - it doesn’t really work that way. People find stuff of whatever age, either randomly or because they are looking in likely sites. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/51 "2012-09-04T17:11:56Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Don’t forget Stone Mountain in Georgia. Yes, but we’re looking for evidence of culture and intelligence. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/52 "2012-09-04T17:26:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Interesting idea - how long will that thing last ? No bacteria on the Moon (least not until someone decides to terraform it) so we can rule out rot ; no wind either to damage it… I suppose the only thing left is an accurate meteorite strike ? Sunlight would be the most likely culprit, I’d guess. > [@](#): > > How much evidence do we have of Human Habitation and Civilization from say, between 15,000 and 50,000 years ago? How much time have we spent looking for it? We have good evidence of humans using fire 250K years ago. There’s speculation but no compelling evidence fire could have been mastered as long as 2M years ago. That may not be what you mean by civilization, though. The earliest evidence for agriculture is 10K years ago. Without agriculture, we’re hunter-gatherers. Hunter-gatherer society was mostly egalitarian (though probably with slaves and headmen). The reason is that there isn’t enough surplus to support an aristocracy or standing military. But with organized agriculture, all that changes, and we get a ruling and military classed, and the ability to “fund” major projects. We also find evidence of shorter lives and more disease and violence among the agricultural people when compared with hunter-gatherers living nearby at the same time. So why did agriculture win out, if it was worse? Mostly because it could support a much higher population density. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231/53 "2012-09-04T23:30:24Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > How much evidence do we have of Human Habitation and Civilization from say, between 15,000 and 50,000 years ago? How much time have we spent looking for it? > > Ok, now how much time have we spent looking for any evidence of anything prior to about 1 million years ago? We have evidence of some kind of industry being practiced by Neanderthals. The Mousterian Neanderthal culture was known for widespread tool use, with tool ‘kits’ being found near various Neanderthal bones. The name ‘Mousterian’ comes from a dig that appears to have been some kind of shelter or small factory for making the tools. A large collection of a specific tool type was found there, indicating perhaps that there was specialization in labor going on, which would require some form of trade as well. This dates back between 40,000 years and 200,000 years. Earlier tool kits date back almost 2.5 million years. It’s unclear how much organization sophistication went into making them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-ancient-civilizations/633231.md?page=2)