# Very disappointed with the Kentucky Derby finish **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 4, 2019, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486 "2019-05-04T23:27:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/21 "2019-05-05T16:26:33Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > Second, it did not affect the outcome of the race. How can you possibly know this? Country House was not significantly affected, but two other horses were. War of Will might have more to complain about than Country House: > [@Railer13](#): > > Country House was not affected. But War of Will, who was making a move for the lead, was definitely affected. His jockey did a masterful job of keeping the contact to a minimum. And War of Will did not finish in the top 4, although he very well might have without the foul by Maximum Security. A horse’s speed isn’t the only thing that affects the race, it also includes how the jockey controls the horse, how it reacts to the crowd and other horses and other factors. If the horse had tripped and fallen, it would have lost even it it was unintentional and an accident. It’s unfortunate that the jockey wasn’t able to control it, but if it violated the rules in effect at the time then it seems to me the outcome is fair. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/22 "2019-05-05T16:35:32Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > No. Conditions are what they are, just as in pro football. A contest is announced for a certain day, and it occurs on that day, no matter the conditions. > > All involved in the Kentucky Derby–owners, trainers, jockeys, farriers, horseplayers–had to adjust for conditions today. The Green Bay Packers may play in winter conditions, because they have no other choice, according to the schedule. Same with the Kentucky Derby, and other important stakes races–the horses are going to run, despite local conditions. It makes handicapping a challenge, but it can provide nice payouts if a mudder that you’ve selected comes home. Horses are pulled if trainers don’t like the conditions, even at the Derby level. Everyone involved knew what the footing was going to be like. > [@kenobi\_65](#): > > The jockey was interviewed immediately after the race (before the protest had been lodged), and told the reporter from NBC that, as he had been making the final turn, Maximum Security appeared to get spooked when he saw the crowd, and it took him a moment to bring the horse back under control. > > That timing would appear to line up with when the horse suddenly veered to the outside. The jockey knew exactly what the problem was going to be and was trying to get in front of it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/23 "2019-05-05T17:12:38Z")
> [@Spoons](#): > > … > > The placement of Number 7 into 17th place is something I cannot explain, but perhaps the _Daily Racing Form_ news or results can explain. I heard that the standard is to move the ‘offending’ horse to just below the level of the last ‘offended’ horse’. So if that ‘offended’ horse finishes last, now the offender is places there. ---
**Author:** ![zoog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7ea924/32.png) [@zoog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoog)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/24 "2019-05-05T17:45:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Yes, but when touching in NASCAR gets out of hand and you wind up with a stack of cars and drivers in messed up pile the cars don’t scream in agony and you don’t have to shoot them for having a flat tire. I can’t help but think that might have something to do with the rule. Yes, this. I don’t play the ponies anymore but I did a bit and was a little more in tune with the sport 15-20 years ago (I had to cut it out of my budget). But back when I was going to the races more, I saw a handful of incidents where horses got tangled up resulting in gruesome injuries to jockeys and the death of the horses. That’s why, intentional or not, a horse isn’t allowed to drift into a spot where another horse is running. I was stunned that they made the call they did under the circumstances, but I think it was the right call. I heard one of the trainers (might have been Country House’s trainer) say that if that had been a claiming race without a lot a stake that it would have been a no-brainer DQ. Same rules apply here. It took a lot of guts for the stewards to make that call, but they did it unanimously after a long and careful look. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/25 "2019-05-05T18:04:00Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > This? THIS is what we are up in arms and screaming bloody murder about?? > > [reads posts again] > > Hmm, apparently not. Eh, just as well; the NHL playoffs are more important anyway. 😃 > > My opinion? Their game, their rules. I’m not so arrogant as to pretend that I know more about the Sport of Kings than the owners, trainers, jockeys, stewards, announcers, and commentators who are in this world all 12 months of the year. If the officials said it was a foul, as far as I’m concerned, it’s a foul. > > I will add, though, that more than any other type of competition I’ve ever seen, racing…any racing…has tons of subtleties and intricacies. What maneuvers are permissible and not permissible, what’s required for eligibility, track conditions, the effect of weather, positions, how hard to push, the best way to corner, and on, and on. I can’t even count the number of times I said “Wait, that’s illegal?” or “How did he make that pass?” That’s why when the race ends, you always see “Unofficial Results”. Nothing’s good until the officials go through the race and make _sure_ that it’s good. > > Unfair? Controversial? Ridiculous? Maybe. But that’s why they play the games. > > Should be a _very_ interesting Pimlico one week from now, that’s for sure. 🙂 You make some good points here, and I’d just like to add that this is why I don’t agree with those who want to separate so-called judged sports, such as gymnastics and figure skating, from other sports. Every sport has aspects of judgement, even ones seemingly as objective as racing. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/26 "2019-05-05T19:16:00Z")
Judging rules violations is not in the same category as the judging being the sole measure of performance. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/27 "2019-05-05T20:27:24Z")
[And of course, Il Douche weighs in on the decision.](https://sports.yahoo.com/donald-trump-kentucky-derby-political-correctness-142347715.html?utm_medium=social&utm_content=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=yahoosports&fbclid=IwAR34Dyf7RBP1CSfylrZBppJF3hYfUvetXg_kZ5BHXgq2808PIDrIXuPh4CQ) > [@](#): > > The Kentuky Derby decision was not a good one. It was a rough and tumble race on a wet and sloppy track, actually, a beautiful thing to watch. Only in these days of political correctness could such an overturn occur. The best horse did NOT win the Kentucky Derby - not even close! The decision of the stewards was unanimous. That’s good enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/28 "2019-05-05T21:11:05Z")
Well, he is the expert on the best being deprived of victory. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/29 "2019-05-05T21:58:40Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > Just as they were making the turn, the first horse over the line, _Maximum Security_, interfered with _War Of Will_ and _Long Range Toddy_ and indirectly with _Country House_. It then straightened up and went on to win convincingly. > > In most other racing jurisdictions the objection would have been dismissed on the grounds that _Country House_, had the interference not occurred, would not have beaten\* Maximum Security\* anyway. Under Category 1 protest rules, it must be shown that the horse causing the interference gained an advantage and only finished in front of the affected runner as a result of the interference. > > However, North American racing does not use the “model rule” in Article 32 of the International Federation of Horseracing Authorities (IFHA) rules. Of course, they have been talking about adopting it for years. Whether it is law or any sport, I’ve never been the fan of projecting “what ifs had it not occurred” types of thinking. First, from watching the race several times, I’m not sure that if not for the foul, Country House was not cost about a half of a step. After the horse behind him pulled up, he drifted to the outside causing a near bumping with Country House a few seconds later. We cannot really say definitively what would have happened but for the foul. Second, the idea of disqualification in any sport, IIRC, is not to attempt to reconstruct what would have happened had the foul not occurred, but as a punishment and inducement for competitors not to commit fouls to begin with. To me, that’s like saying if Lance Armstrong is disqualified from winning the Tour de France because he is found later having used banned substances during the race that we not disqualify him because after studying races where he wasn’t using banned substances, he would have won anyways without the banned substance. Or if a pitcher was found throwing a spitball, he is not ejected, because he would have struck out the batter anyways. I am not knowledgeable in the ins and outs of horse racing rules, and it seems that this was an unfortunate accident with no ill intent, but if you make that the rule then unscrupulous jockeys will start having “unfortunate accidents” and feign innocence in the next race when they cut off a passing horse. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/30 "2019-05-05T23:37:33Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Second, the idea of disqualification in any sport, IIRC, is not to attempt to reconstruct what would have happened had the foul not occurred, but as a punishment and inducement for competitors not to commit fouls to begin with. I agree that preventing undesirable behavior is why we have rules. > [@](#): > > I am not knowledgeable in the ins and outs of horse racing rules, and it seems that this was an unfortunate accident with no ill intent, but if you make that the rule then unscrupulous jockeys will start having “unfortunate accidents” and feign innocence in the next race when they cut off a passing horse. It’s the jockey’s job to control the horse. Intentionality does not and should not matter in this case. An uncontrolled horse is a danger to itself and everyone around it. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2019, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/31 "2019-05-05T23:40:40Z")
And anyway, intent can be a hard thing to gauge just by observation. Some times it is obvious, but often it is well-disguised. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/32 "2019-05-06T00:17:33Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Whether it is law or any sport, I’ve never been the fan of projecting “what ifs had it not occurred” types of thinking. First, from watching the race several times, **I’m not sure that if not for the foul, Country House was not cost about a half of a step**. After the horse behind him pulled up, he drifted to the outside causing a near bumping with Country House a few seconds later. We cannot really say definitively what would have happened but for the foul. [Bolding mine] Dude… could you untangle that triple-negative for me? I read it several times but I don’t quite get what you’re saying. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/33 "2019-05-06T00:53:15Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > [And of course, Il Douche weighs in on the decision.](https://sports.yahoo.com/donald-trump-kentucky-derby-political-correctness-142347715.html?utm_medium=social&utm_content=socialflow&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=yahoosports&fbclid=IwAR34Dyf7RBP1CSfylrZBppJF3hYfUvetXg_kZ5BHXgq2808PIDrIXuPh4CQ) > The decision of the stewards was unanimous. That’s good enough for me. Eh, looking at the comments sections in a number of news media pages about the race I could already last night see a whole lot of people having the same kind of reaction – it’s a more generalized attitude of “how dare technicalities bring down a WINNER”… “the best horse did not win” … because of course, if someone is better or superior, then it is right that he win, even if he does it wrong. And really, accusing _Churchill Downs_ of “political correctness”?? Hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/34 "2019-05-06T01:01:58Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Eh, looking at the comments sections in a number of news media pages about the race I could already last night see a whole lot of people having the same kind of reaction – it’s a more generalized attitude of “how dare technicalities bring down a WINNER”… “the best horse did not win” … because of course, if someone is better or superior, then it is right that he win, even if he does it wrong. > > And really, accusing _Churchill Downs_ of “political correctness”?? Hilarious. He was clearly the best horse. I don’t see the point of having a race at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/35 "2019-05-06T01:52:58Z")
> [@Donald J. Trump](#): > > The best horse did NOT win the Kentucky Derby - not even close! [Tell that to Donerail, who won the 1913 Kentucky Derby as a 91-1 bet.](https://web.archive.org/web/20110814055642/http://d3b4lt1s53xf6k.cloudfront.net/sites/kentuckyderby.com/files/charts/1913.pdf) That was on a fast track and no one challenged it. Anyway, the situation is unprecedented, and thoroughbred racing is already facing so many problems that you can bet there will be an investigation of the stewards, jockeys, betting patterns before the race, etc., so thorough that it will literally be a rubber-glove probe. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/36 "2019-05-06T04:54:28Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > [Tell that to Donerail, who won the 1913 Kentucky Derby as a 91-1 bet.](https://web.archive.org/web/20110814055642/http://d3b4lt1s53xf6k.cloudfront.net/sites/kentuckyderby.com/files/charts/1913.pdf) > > That was on a fast track and no one challenged it. > > Anyway, the situation is unprecedented, and thoroughbred racing is already facing so many problems that you can bet there will be an investigation of the stewards, jockeys, betting patterns before the race, etc., so thorough that it will literally be a rubber-glove probe. There was clearly a foul. What are they going to probe? It was CGI? It came down to a judgement call of three people. It happened in such a random manner that there is no way that it was because of a fix. If it was fixed for Maximum Security not to win there are much easier ways to run the race to make sure that doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/37 "2019-05-06T05:05:27Z")
> [@zoog](#): > > I heard one of the trainers (might have been Country House’s trainer) say that if that had been a claiming race without a lot a stake that it would have been a no-brainer DQ. Same rules apply here. It took a lot of guts for the stewards to make that call, but they did it unanimously after a long and careful look. He was pretty diplomatic about it but he was right. I don’t claim to be an expert but I’ve been to a track a time or two and I’ve seen disqualifications for less. He’s right that the rules are supposed to be the same whether it’s a claims race or the Derby. It was clearly the right call but it was the tough call. If they let it go the story would be dead by the Preakness. As it is it’s now history. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/38 "2019-05-06T12:04:37Z")
As I understand it TWO jockeys filed objections. Not just Country House’s but also (I believe) War of Will’s, which clearly WAS impeded, and seemed to be mounting a charge. Many forms of track racing have “stay in your lane” rules. In short track speedskating, you are not allowed to drift out to make it harder for someone to pass on the outside. In track, you can’t try to make the outside runner run even further around the turn. So the idea of such a rule in horseracing neither surprises nor offends me. I don’t know how viewers can say it was clearly inadvertent. I presume the jockey has SOME control over the horse, which includes the direction in which it is traveling. And experienced jockey or not, I can imagine the thought of squeezing off a possible passing lane… What surprised me most about the TV coverage, however, was the actions of the interviewers an the participants while the protest was being decided. As a lawyer, I wanted to scream at all of the jockeys and trainers, “SHUT THE FUCK UP!” Whether the one jockey saying his horse veered because of the crowd, or the other saying his horse “kind of” turned sideways, the lawyer in me wanted them to clam up. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/40 "2019-05-06T13:50:26Z")
> [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > In most other racing jurisdictions the objection would have been dismissed on the grounds that _Country House_, had the interference not occurred, would not have beaten\* Maximum Security\* anyway. Then, in my opinion, “most other racing jurisdictions” are wrong because that methodology is far too subjective. You’re basically ignoring a KNOWN FOUL because you ASSUME that it wasn’t the determining factor. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486/41 "2019-05-06T16:02:07Z")
The rule is that a horse that interferes is disqualified. It is not “the horse is disqualified unless he would have won the race, anyway.” Given the football example, if a kick returner steps out of bounds when returning the ball for a touchdown, the touchdown is called back. No one says, “well that was accidental and he would have scored anyway so the touchdown should count.” The rule is there in the interests of fairness (if other horses hadn’t had to slow down to avoid a collision, they might have challenged or even won the race) and safety (if any of the horses had fallen due to the drifting out, it would have been a disaster). This may have been a hard case, but it’s clear that Maximum Security interfered. The stewards all agreed on this. So, if you’re objecting to the decision, you’re ultimately saying that, even though it was the right call, they shouldn’t have done their job and had let it slide. Would you allow officials in any other sport to let an obvious infraction of the rules to let slide? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-disappointed-with-the-kentucky-derby-finish/833486.md?page=3)