# Very well, Gaudere **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 30, 2001, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067 "2001-03-30T03:41:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/41 "2001-03-30T16:34:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > Clearly you’re dueling because you want to. You’ve gone out of your way to put yourself in some pretty specialized circumstances that make it possible. > > What purpose does pretending you are doing it for honor serve? > > In fact, the simple truth is that because you would hide behind a pretense of “honor” in order to satisfy a sick little sodomasochistic perversion, you in fact have none. > > No honor whatsoever. Just pretense and posing. The first rule of Dueling Club is…you do not talk about Dueling Club. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/42 "2001-03-30T16:46:28Z")
And when you’re visiting Cloud-Cuckoo Land, be sure to try _Pretension_, the latest fragrance from Screwtape. Duelling, a twisted idea of “honor,” stilted language, an inability to just accept that “don’t be a jerk” is constantly subject to interpretation and that if one has a problem, one need only discuss it with a mod privately or get right the hell over it . . . all that I could stand. But appreciating a pun like that? Oh, puhleeze, Mary. Finagle save me from SCAdian munchkins. ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/43 "2001-03-30T17:03:31Z")
When you wrote with courtesy, such implied that you were not simply gathering information with which to insult me. I have learned much about you in a little time. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*So what kind of swords? > \*\* None of your business, as you have demonstrated. > [@](#): > > \*\*I assume that you only duel with other dueling afficionados, and that the rest of the world (having matured,) is not subject to your rules of honor. \*\* Surely you will acknowledge that it is impossible to have a discussion of honor with one who does not understand the language. Clearly, the world does not seem to subject itself to any rules of honor at all. Much to it’s detriment. The world lost some of it’s beauty when men were no longer required to back up their words with steel. > [@](#): > > **How do you reconcile maiming someone over a point of honor, when you do not hold yourself and others to the same standard outside your ring of duellists?** You assume much. I have never maimed anyone. How can you presume to know to what standards I hold myself? > [@](#): > > **I would also guess that finding a duelling partner isn’t easy these days.** Again, you assume that I go out of my way to find people to wound. Such would not be honorable. It has been over ten years since I have been in any such straits. > [@](#): > > **First, the subset of the population actively involved in fencing is quite small. Secondly, the subset of those willing to participate in deadly duels must be even smaller.** And why do you assume “fencing?” Because I know something about it? You could as like assume the same about the Musojikiden Eishin Ryu, or Togakure Ryu Kenjutsu, or the Academia Nazionale di Scherma. I know a little about those, too. You are vilifying someone who never offended you, and from a position of ignorance. You are not doing yourself much credit thereby. > [@](#): > > **It must take quite an effort to find somebody within this subsubset with which to duel.** See above. I don’t look for them. I have never looked for them. That would be wrong. But I don’t back down, either. > [@](#): > > **Then of course, you must deliberately provoke them to the point where a duel can be held.** You have no basis for such accusations. I would say from observation, you are more likely to provoke someone. > [@](#): > > **I say deliberately because what are the chances that two fencers who subscribe to an identical and outdated mode of childish honor would find and slight each other simply by chance?** “Fencers” again. You are entirely ignorant my background and training. It would be more the actions of a gentleman for you to keep silent about that which you do not know. > [@](#): > > **Why not drop the pretense?** You assume it is so, not everyone does. > [@](#): > > **Clearly you’re dueling because you want to. You’ve gone out of your way to put yourself in some pretty specialized circumstances that make it possible.** Where did you get this information? If you were following me around over ten years ago, you were very careful about it. I never noticed you. > [@](#): > > **What purpose does pretending you are doing it for honor serve?** This question cannot be answered without acknowledging that it was pretending. It was not. > [@](#): > > **In fact, the simple truth is that because you would hide behind a pretense of “honor” in order to satisfy a sick little sodomasochistic perversion, you in fact have none.** Thankfully, the world generally needs more to define “simple truth” than you do. > [@](#): > > \*\*No honor whatsoever. Just pretense and posing. > The alternative of course is that you’re lying. Actually, I’d prefer to beleive that as being a liar speaks much better of you, than had you actually followed through on this little delusion \*\* In short, you illustrate what is wrong with the world and it’s abandonment of honor. You first, under false pretenses, ask me a question which a child could answer. I assumed at the time it was because you wanted to know, but apparently you were testing me, without my knowledge. When I disappointed you by failing to fail your test, you then spent quite a few keystrokes insulting me, without my ever having insulted you. In fact, I have until recently thought highly of you. Your recent essay in which you used the state of your hands as an allegory for a life well spent was quite moving. Which is why it is the more surprising that you would insult me as you have done. And this is why I use your actions to illustrate a great wrong with the world: you insult me while remaining anonymous. You will not have to back up such insults, because I don’t know where you are. Actually, if you truly understood honor, you wouldn’t worry. Honor prevents me from seeking satisfaction from an untrained, uncouth, boor such as yourself. You are, and will always be, safe from me. But I pity you a life without honor. I regret the disgust you must feel for having defrauded a man who never injured you, just for the purpose of castigating him for wrongs which, I suspect, the world has done you. I only answered you because you led me into believing you were addressing me with courtesy. It will not happen again. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/44 "2001-03-30T17:33:49Z")
andros: > [@](#): > > \*\*But appreciating a pun like that? Oh, puhleeze, Mary. Finagle save me from SCAdian munchkins. \*\* You dissing my pun, fucker? _Whap!_ ::smacks andros upside the head with a hockey glove.:: (It’s all I could find on short notice.) ---
**Author:** ![BF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5ac83/32.png) [@BF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BF)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/45 "2001-03-30T17:50:35Z")
Not like it matters, but, well put, Screwtape. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/46 "2001-03-30T17:55:35Z")
> [@](#): > > When you wrote with courtesy, such implied that you were not simply gathering information with which to insult me. Nonsense. Had you provided a reasonable explanation, I would have accepted it. You brought up fighting duels in your OP as something that provides special insight into your motivations and actions. You mention it as something which provides you with stature and worthy of consideration. Yet, you refuse to explain the details which would allow a reasonable person to decide what stature and consideration should be conferred to you. You simply demand it. How can one treat you honorably based solely on demand? If you are unwilling to describe the dueling process and why it conveys honor and consideration to you, than you should not have mentioned it. No only are you not backing your words up with steel, you’re not even backing them up with other words or reason. Since you brought it up unprovoked in spite of your vows to the contrary, doesn’t breaking that vow imply a lack of honor? I’ve lead an interesting enough life and have conflicted with many people in many ways, and I’ve even fenced. In my 33 years though, I’ve never been challenged to a sword-duel. It seems unusual enough to have it happen once. You expect me to believe that more than once is coincidence? The fact as you casually mention that you’d be unwilling to duel Gaudere because she is a woman, labels you as a narrow-minded bigot. Honor is not conveyed by gender. Though I for one agree with you. I wouldn’t duel Gaudere either, as I value my ass. So the bottom line is either explain the circumstances of your dueling as to why it conveys honor and consideration, or stop demanding it. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/47 "2001-03-30T18:15:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Furthermore, I learn from Scylla that “chucklehead” is anathema as well. A quick return to the original thread reveals that I have since been called an “ass.” I believe Scylla was being sarcastic. But I have warned Varlos for calling you an ass, although I find your comment, “[v]ery well, I’ll explain it. And I’ll use small words . . . And though it requires an exercise of patience, I’ll actually answer your question.” less than charming. It is certainly jerk-like, and I would advise you not to make a habit out of being such a snot. When you signed up for this message board, you agreed to abide by the moderator’s decisions and follow the rules of each forum. A rule of GD is: No direct personal insults. _My_ personal judgment is that “waste of oxygen” is a direct personal insult. _Your_ personal judgment is that “coward” and “liar” are direct personal insults. As a man of honor, surely the contract you agreed to demands that you neither use terms that _I_ consider insults (as the moderator whose rules you have agreed to obey), nor terms that _you_ consider insults (as that violates your agreement to the GD mandate to refrain from personal insults). Obeying a higher standard is the price honorable men such as yourself must pay, but you could hardly post something you consider to be a direct personal insult while knowing that you are not supposed to do such a thing. So I assume your honor demands that you cannot call anyone a “liar” or “coward” in GD either. If you do so, I will consider you a Teletubbie-raping weenie poopoohead who has “special feelings” for his Rainbow Brite dolls. (Note that by your rules I have not actually insulted you here, so don’t start challenging me to anything.) I note, also, that you have violated the terms of the contract you agreed to when you signed up, and I have yet to see you make any sort of amends for your breaking your given word. In a related note, get over yourself, please. And DO NOT EVEN THINK of actually physically threatening any person on this board, point of honor or no. That’s a good way to get booted. > [@](#): > > Clearly we are all in need of a list of acceptable and non-acceptable terms. Might we expect such instruction from our Moderator? No, I don’t think you do need a list. The creativity of the dopers far exceeds anything my poor mind can produce; any list would not adequately cover certain circumstances and usages. I trust that the dopers have a pretty good idea when they intend to be insulting–you certainly did. My rule of thumb is that if it can be a legitimate point in an argument, it is acceptable under the “direct insults” rule (though it may violate the “jerk” rule if you, say, call everyone who ever disagrees with you a lying coward). This is why “you’re a coward” and “you’re a liar” is allowed–sometimes people _do_ lie in a debate, and sometimes their argument _is_ based on fear. However, variations of “bite me”, “you suck”, “asshole”, “waste of oxygen”, etc. can in no wise have legitimate use in a debate–saying that someone is worthless _does not have any bearing at all on their argument_, it is a **purely** personal flame. Comments like that are the Twinkies in the food pyramid of debate; while “liar” and “coward” may supply certain essential nutrients, “waste of oxygen” is all empty calories. (Hm, must be lunchtime.) **Uke** and **Mike** : Oh, _boyyyys_… ::“accidentally” drops delicately monogrammed handkerchief and studiously does not look around to see if anyone picks it up for her:: ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/48 "2001-03-30T18:18:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*_Scylla:_ > The fact as you casually mention that you’d be unwilling to duel Gaudere because she is a woman, labels you as a narrow-minded bigot. \*\* This is the only statement of yours to which I’ll reply, and that only because you bring in a third party - namely, Gaudere. I never said that I would not challenge Gaudere because she is a woman, I said that I would not challenge Gaudere because she never insulted me. As your actions have placed you beneath contempt, the rest of your post shall be ignored. **BF** , Thank you. Very kindly said. ---
**Author:** ![Screwtape](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Screwtape](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Screwtape)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/49 "2001-03-30T18:28:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > \*\*…I note, also, that you have violated the terms of the contract you agreed to when you signed up, and I have yet to see you make any sort of amends for your breaking your given word… \*\* I can but hope this will suffice, as it is all I can do: \*\*I resign. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/50 "2001-03-30T18:29:52Z")
:: Diving through the air to catch the hankie lest it be sullied by the base earth:: Mi’lady? I believe you dropped this… Hmmm…are those tulips embroidered on there? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/51 "2001-03-30T18:57:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Screwtape \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > > \*\*…I note, also, that you have violated the terms of the contract you agreed to when you signed up, and I have yet to see you make any sort of amends for your breaking your given word… \*\* > > I can but hope this will suffice, as it is all I can do: > > \*\*I resign. \*\* \*\* ::Monty Python:: “Run Awaaaay. Run awayyy.” I guess that’s the honorable thing to do as opposed to staying, and arguing your viewpoint. All you’ve done is pose, and pronounce. You’ve described nothing. You’ve given nothing. I for one would love to hear how modern dueling is actually honorable as opposed to simple bloodsport. I would like to know how it goes on, and why. I would like to know the rationale behind it. You have demanded stature from these claimed actions, yet provided know reason why that stature should be conveyed. When you didn’t get it, you ran away. Oh honor thou art fickle. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/52 "2001-03-30T18:57:25Z")
Scylla, The discussion over the likeliness of anyone’s being involved in duelling in this day and age may well be mooted by the apparent resignation of Screwtape. However, for whatever it’s worth, I can tell you that during my career as a public defender, I represented one of two men that enagaged in what they characterized as a duel. The Commonwealth saw it as an assault with a deadly weapon. Neither man suffered any serious injuries; both were apparently duelling afficianados, and it ended with an easy plea bargain. I’m not sure how much honor was involved, since the altercation apparently began when my guy discovered his girlfirend was making time with the other guy, and it ended when he got frustrated with the lack of effect his sword was producing and went after him with a walking stick. I offer this only to say that, to my personal knowledge, there are at least two people out there that felt a “duel” was the way to settle a dispute, as recently as fifteen years ago. 🙂 - Rick ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/53 "2001-03-30T18:58:15Z")
> [@](#): > > You dissing my pun, fucker? > > Whap! ::smacks andros upside the head with a hockey glove.:: Stand, then, thou cross-gartered varlet, and savor the taste of my steel. Or something like that. ok, ok, it was pretty good. No, it was damned good. Just painful. 😉 Oh, **Screwtape**? You might take your leave of us, but remember– > [@](#): > > You cannot, sir, take from [us] anything that [we] I will not more willingly part withal. Don’t let the door hit you in the codpiece on your way out. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/54 "2001-03-30T19:06:24Z")
Thanks Bricker. I wonder how many dueling afficionados there are out there. Screwtop Ziplock claimed to have more than one. It’s got my curiosity enough to do some research. I got to think there’d be a great freelance article on modern dueling practices to be written if there’s anything to it. He chased him with a walking stick? Those must have been some weak-assed swords. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/55 "2001-03-30T19:16:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Scylla \* > \*\*Thanks Bricker. I wonder how many dueling afficionados there are out there. Screwtop Ziplock claimed to have more than one. > > It’s got my curiosity enough to do some research. I got to think there’d be a great freelance article on modern dueling practices to be written if there’s anything to it. > > He chased him with a walking stick? Those must have been some weak-assed swords. \*\* I don’t know much about swords, but as I recall, they were practice foils, not designed to hurt any more than the loss of a point in a fencing match. I think the folks in question decided to settle their differences like gentlemen, and then one guy got upset that he wasn’t getting anywhere with that method, and only got angrier when he kept getting poked with the foil. The only significant injuries that were inflicted came from pummeling with the stick, rather than pricking with the swords. It’s been a while, so I may have muffed a detail or two… but like, sadly, the vast majority of my clients, this guy was definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer. And needless to say, I do _not_ consider this case as indiciative that there’s a teeming hidden society of duelling enthusiasts walking amongst us. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/56 "2001-03-30T19:24:33Z")
> [@](#): > > one guy got upset that he wasn’t getting anywhere with that method, and only got angrier when he kept getting poked with the foil. The only significant injuries that were inflicted came from pummeling with the stick, rather than pricking with the swords. I can’t stop laughing over that image. ---
**Author:** ![smoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@smoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smoke)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/57 "2001-03-30T19:32:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Screwtape \* > \*\*…as one who has fought actual duels over points of honor, \*\* PLEASE provide some details on this one! Did you smack him with a glove? Where were you? Why? Were on of you wearing a large hat? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/58 "2001-03-30T20:15:49Z")
> [@](#): > > I can but hope this will suffice, as it is all I can do… Pish. A resignation is all you offer for _breaking your sworn word!?_ A case of Guinness sent to a PO Box is the only truly honorable response to breaking the rules in GD. Just email me and I’ll send you the addy, OK? The equivalent in cash sent to a PayPal account is acceptable as well–I swear I will not spend it on frivolous food and clothing, but use it only for its intended purpose of the purchase of beer. Resignation, schmesignation–what the hell good does a resignation do to assuage the grievious harm done by the violation of your oath? Why, I must have spend several whole minutes dealing with the consequences of _you_ breaking _your_ word, not to mention all the effort in coming up with well-worded responses. The requirements of honor have not been fulfilled! (Do you “resign” from a message board, anyhow? It’s not like “poster” is a position that you hold. I always kinda thought you just, well, _left_. ) ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/59 "2001-03-30T20:17:31Z")
I know why **Screwtape** couldn’t answer the specific questions - according to his profile, he’s a “Member of the media, local celebrity. Interests:history, science, philosophy, and the abolition of wooly thinking” So, naturally, should he give too many specific bits of information, his public would know his deep dark secrets. Still unknown, however, is why he’d bring it up in the first place, if he wasn’t going to elaborate on it. Reminds me of the scene in _TopGun_ where Cruise says “that’s classified” after bringing up a topic he obviously wanted to brag about. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Cynical](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ee59a6/32.png) [@Mr.Cynical](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Cynical)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2001, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067/60 "2001-03-30T20:43:23Z")
Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/very-well-gaudere/60067.md?page=4)