# Vestal Blue, may I have a word with you? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 7, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522 "2000-12-07T19:02:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/1 "2000-12-07T19:02:03Z")
In [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=49524&pagenumber=1) you said: > [@](#): > > As for being a country ‘dominated’ by Christians, I suggest a checking of history; this country was founded by Christians, and predicated on biblical principles; which isn’t to say others aren’t welcome, but they should recognize the predominant value set, as I would expect to recognize one of another culture. If this is not acceptable to anyone, they are free to leave. I have had it with political correctness, beyond a healthy respect for others. Are you really suggesting that _American citizens_ who do not accept your “biblical principles” should leave their own country? > [@](#): > > Maybe, just maybe, our founding fathers did something right? You’re damn straight they did: > [@](#): > > The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. – Article VI, Paragraph III > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. – The First Amendment The founding fathers were also smart enough to realize they weren’t perfect, and allowed for improvements: > [@](#): > > All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. – The Fourteenth Amendment, Section 1 I was born in Shields Township, Illinois, U.S.A. I’ve been an American citizen all my life, never been anything but an American citizen, and have no desire to be anything but an American. I’ll be God-dammed–if you’ll pardon the expression–if I’ll either accept your “biblical principles” _or_ leave my country. (Oh, and please feel free to [search](http://www.law.emory.edu/FEDERAL/usconser.html) the Constitution for your “biblical principles”.) Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2000, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/2 "2000-12-07T19:45:37Z")
Vestal… from this site [http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm](http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/founders.htm) Thomas Paine - _I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of…Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."_ It was during John Adam’s administration that the Senate ratified the Treaty of Peace and Friendship, which states in Article XI that “the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.” From Thomas Jefferson \*The Christian priesthood, finding the doctrines of Christ levelled to every understanding and too plain to need explanation, saw, in the mysticisms of Plato, materials with which they might build up an artificial system which might, from its indistinctness, admit everlasting controversy, give employment for their order, and introduce it to profit, power, and pre-eminence. The doctrines which flowed from the lips of Jesus himself are within the comprehension of a child; but thousands of volumes have not yet explained the Platonisms engrafted on them: and for this obvious reason that nonsense can never be explained." \* James Madison- \*Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." “During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” \* and from Ben Franklin - _As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion…has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho’ it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble."_ ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2000, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/3 "2000-12-07T19:52:08Z")
and while you’re at it… and I urge everyone to… take this [**Quiz**](http://www.ffrf.org/quiz.html) You might learn something ---
**Author:** ![Cantrip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Cantrip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cantrip)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/4 "2000-12-07T22:05:41Z")
Hey, 18 out of 21 - not bad. Although it was thanks to **oldscratch** that I got the treaty question right. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gr8Kat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gr8kat/32/18668_2.png) [@Gr8Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gr8Kat)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/5 "2000-12-08T00:43:58Z")
I got 19 out of 21. I blew the two Pilgrim questions, which is stupid, I should have known better. And I’m not a member but I still feel the need to plug site page whenever the subject of the Founding Fathers’ beliefs comes up: [http://www.deism.com](http://www.deism.com) ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2000, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/6 "2000-12-09T00:23:14Z")
Say, should I e-mail Vestal Blue or something and let him know I’ve opened this thread? I haven’t actually ever opened a Pit thread to respond to a particular poster before, so I’m not really sure about the protocol involved. (Of course, it may be that V.B. already has seen the thread, and simply chooses not to respond.) ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/7 "2000-12-10T14:29:17Z")
Jeez. A no show in the pit? Have you emailed Vestal yet? MAybe post a link in one of the other threads… I’d like to hear some kind of reponse. ---
**Author:** ![Nika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ba9def/32.png) [@Nika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nika)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/8 "2000-12-10T15:02:07Z")
Is it possible that the intent was not get out you non-christian bastards, but when in Rome do as the Romans? The idea that if you are going to move to a country for all it can offer you and your family, you should become a citizen of that country and not bring your country with you. I think that is one interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/9 "2000-12-10T17:50:12Z")
Oh, I’m sorry sir, you seem to have forgotten to check your old country at the door :rolleyes: Da Fuck? ---
**Author:** ![Nika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ba9def/32.png) [@Nika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nika)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/10 "2000-12-10T18:25:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Myrr21 \* > \*\*Oh, I’m sorry sir, you seem to have forgotten to check your old country at the door :rolleyes: > > \*\* It is a figure of speech you idiot. Like people who think that because their religion says they can wear a sword in their turban they should be able to violate the law and carry a hidden weapon. This is what I mean. If you are going to move to country, follow thier laws and customs. Now, our country allows for freedom of religion in that you can believe whatever you want. You can worship yourself as a god if you want. This is a good thing and I think that people need and deserve this right, until it violoates the law and/or endangers others. ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/11 "2000-12-10T21:07:18Z")
Alright, listen up bitchcakes. First off, there’s a difference between following our laws and following our customs. Obviously, everybody has to follow our laws. If that’s all you were saying then you need to take that Johnny McObvious persona of yours and merge it with Captain McFuckingSaysThingsStraightforward, then maybe you won’t come off as a proto-supremacist fuck. If you think people should follow “our” customs _(what exactly are our customs anyway? And is it different in SoCal where there’s so many Mexicans? Or in downtown B-more: 70-some% black?),_ you’re just a sputtering xenophobic little gibblet. Of course, I was just being a bit lighthearted about it (bloody fucking obvious, really, even to the untrained eye), and don’t appreciate being called an idiot by an over-mentholated waste of a few cubic feet. Got it, bitchcakes? ---
**Author:** ![Nika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ba9def/32.png) [@Nika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nika)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/12 "2000-12-10T22:05:31Z")
Bitchcakes?? BITCHCAKES?!?! That is hilarious. I don’t think that I have ever been called such a ridiculus name!! THIS IS THE PIT! How could I post a retort with out a mild insult? Get over being called an idiot. Now,I do think that it is important that if you are coming to a country for its customs, freedoms and laws that you should abide by them. I am not saying that I have anything against any particular religion or group. Nor am I saying that these people do not have rights, they do. HOWEVER, I do not agree with the country losing the beauties of what it is because people bring the problems of their countries with them. THAT is all I am saying. So chill out. but keep calling me bitchcakes, it is cute and somewhat endearing, not at threatening. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/13 "2000-12-10T22:36:42Z")
please explain further ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/14 "2000-12-10T23:14:21Z")
Please don’t… ::::::: Hey Buck, come back here. This is getting crazy… ::::::::: ---
**Author:** ![Medea\_s\_Child](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Medea\_s\_Child](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Medea_s_Child)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/15 "2000-12-10T23:16:48Z")
Can I be Bitchcakes? Please? I agree with Nika that its endearing. I think I probably agree with Myrr21 on the OP, but I still want to be called Bitchcakes. [sub] Sorry for the hijack…back to fighting ignorance, all of you![/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/16 "2000-12-11T00:41:01Z")
…'Cept for you, **Medea’s Child:** you can just think of it as only a term of endearment 😉 > [@](#): > > HOWEVER, I do not agree with the country losing the beauties of what it is because people bring the problems of their countries with them. - BZZZTTT! Wrong Answer! \* What the hell kinda problems are these people bringing with them? You know, I’ve personally introduced two friends of mine to each other (Romanian and Hungarian–“natural enemies the in the wild”) and watched them _not_ drag their heritage into it. In fact, pretty much the whole damn country seems to be handling this pretty well, all things considered. So you tell me what beauty we’re losing ‘cause of these damn ferigners. Ah mean, besides the righteouuss purity o’ our migh’y fihne Chreeistian ways. Damn ferigners, with thar steerange fud and clothin. T’aint nat’rul :rolleyes: What’s so goddamn hard about “glad you’re here, obey the laws, enjoy your stay/citizenship”? Is it really that Christ-leapin’ difficult? As for the purpose of this fine, fine forum, you seem to have missed the point. It’s here for you to be able to call me an idiot for no goddamn reason (or for a goddamn reason); it’s not here for you to feel obliged call me an idiot for no goddamn reason (that’s just pathetic). Now then, strumpet, get the fuck outta Dodge ---
**Author:** ![Myrr21](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Myrr21](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myrr21)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/17 "2000-12-11T00:43:28Z")
Damn, forgot about the apostrophe in the subject thing. It was supposed to read: \*\* Think of “bitchcakes” as a term of endearment for the terminally dimwitted…\*\* Assbitches, the lot of you; where my gun at? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/18 "2000-12-11T02:19:38Z")
Nika: First off, I didn’t move here–I was born in Illinois. My ancestors have probably lived here for a couple of centuries. I say this not to claim any superiority over more recent immigrants, but as a practical matter, if the U.S. is some kind of Christians-only club, then where am I supposed to go? Second, the _United States of_ America is anti-theocratic and secular to its core. Its Declaration of Independence proclaims that governments derive their power from the consent of the governed, not from divine right (although the DoI does articulate a theory of natural rights based on divine endowment); its Constitution does not mention God _once_, and only mentions religion in the context of telling the government to keep its hands off. It’s true that America as a nation derives from a number of other embryonic nations (Massachusetts, Virginia, and so on) which were either explicitly intended as theocratic utopias, or at least had (as a matter of course) official State Religions. However, the foundation of the _United States_ essentially involved the repudiation of all such notions. The United States is no more a “Christian Nation” than it is a monarchy. So, to all would-be theocrats or religious supremacists of whatever stripe, I say: The United States is a secular nation. If you don’t like it–leave. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/19 "2000-12-11T02:53:00Z")
Say, Nika, what set off this immigrant-bashing jag, anyway? The post that that set me off that I quoted in the O.P. was from a thread on gay rights. I don’t think your typical gay or lesbian American just got off the boat from Gayland or Lesbania (although I suppose some Lesbians _are_ Greek). As far as it goes, I don’t totally disagree with the idea that immigrants should be expected to assimililate the good things about our laws and culture. That would certainly include the idea that the United States is a secular nation; i.e., no attempts to establish a Wahhabite theocracy–we’ve got enough problems with our own home-grown fundies. If you want to go off about arranged marriage or veiling or some damn thing, start your own thread–I might even join you. But as far as immigrants’ _religion_, I’d have to agree with Jefferson: “it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.” (Well, okay, if someone comes around the SDMB and posts their belief that there are twenty gods, I might argue with them a bit.) ---
**Author:** ![dylan\_73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecccb3/32.png) [@dylan\_73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dylan_73)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522/20 "2000-12-11T16:44:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by oldscratch \* > \*\*and while you’re at it… and I urge everyone to… take this [**Quiz**](http://www.ffrf.org/quiz.html) > > You might learn something \*\* Well, I only got 14. Damn. Oh well, they rated that as “Congratulations! Better informed than most Americans” Oh well, seeing as this is that pit; hell, I’m not American, and I still know more about the bloody place than you do! “Better informed than most Amercians”? Damning with faint praise… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vestal-blue-may-i-have-a-word-with-you/44522.md?page=2)