# Vetbridge's Obligation to Recognize Veterinary Ethics **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2006, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497 "2006-05-20T05:00:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/141 "2006-05-23T15:13:48Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > What is the problem with your reading comprehension? To the contrary. I don’t think that either of the people that I was responding to about “writing a letter” were aware of my history of mental illness. That was the point. > > No, I don’t think that anyone here has “beaten me up” because I have had mental health problems. If you look back at many of those threads that you talk about, I’ve participated in them. No martyr here, thanks. No need. Uh, then what _did_ you bring it up for? Because it wasn’t relevant to the discussion. > [@](#): > > That may be true, Excalibre, but that’s not the response that reveals my lack of class. Again, you are having difficulty with reading comprehension. > > A review: > > Bricker said: “Not a record admirable for its cogency or its persuasive power, Zoe.” > > When I said, “Very good, **Bricker**. Now point to your eyes and your nose,” that was another way of stating that **Bricker** had pointed out the obvious. In other words, _I was agreeing with him_ that my arguments lacked persuasive power. Right. By snarking at **Bricker**. Like I said, no class. If you were capable of admitting that you were off-base in starting this pit thread, and apologized, I would think you were a decent person who got caught up in the moment. But even your retractions here are half-assed and obnoxious. > [@Zoe](#): > > Again, I admitted to a lack of information in my first post also. > > Yet somehow, you think that _you_ have enough information to read my mind and know what I am thinking and feeling – so much so that you contradict me on it. The irony. You don’t seem to understand the _point_ of my telling you you didn’t have enough information to reasonably criticize **Vetbridge**. You don’t know enough about either incident to decide whether **Vetbridge** ’s actions were reasonable or not. I tried to tell you that in my first post; you ignored it. Honestly, I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. “I totally understand that I don’t know anything about the situation and therefore I have no business condemning **Vetbridge** ’s actions. So anyway, **Vetbridge** , I pit you!” Is that it? Your behavior in starting and continuing this thread is just bizarre. > [@kambuckta](#): > > Extra ((((((((Zoe Hugs))))))) for being so brave then!! > > Well done lassie. “Brave”? “Well done”? Are you serious? She hasn’t even apologized. I don’t think saying, “I’m not going to talk about this anymore” is really “brave” in the context of her launching this unwarranted attack on **Vetbridge**. Even if she apologized at this point, it wouldn’t be worth much. But it would be something. **Zoe** , you ain’t got no class at all. ---
**Author:** ![samm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@samm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/142 "2006-05-23T15:48:38Z")
…and there’s nothing classier than repeatedly telling someone else they have no class… ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/143 "2006-05-23T16:20:34Z")
> [@samm](#): > > …and there’s nothing classier than repeatedly telling someone else they have no class… On occasion class will point out the lack thereof, just as truth will sometimes require exposing falsehood. **Excalibre** is perfectly correct that it would be less than just if the author of a thread pitting a fellow SDMB member were allowed to walk away from it short of (a)proving the allegation(s), (b)disavowing and apologizing for them, or (c)sticking around to take their deserved lumps. **Zoe** has often shown herself (at least on this message board) to be a thoroughly humane, thoughtful and admirable person, but every year or so (full disclosure: I was a loud, if not especially important, participant in her thread attacking **Phlosphor** ) she is, I think, wrong in judging others. Most of us are occasionally wrong, but we can learn to curb our impulse to falsely accuse others of wrongdoing or poor ethics or general ickiness if we are called to account when our accusations prove baseless. The problem is, **Zoe** wants none of that. Having challenged her adversary (or maybe a few of them) to a duel, fired, and missed, she’d now just as soon forget the whole thing. I understand the impulse. But I’d just as soon something happened right _now_, in _this_ thread, to quell her impulse to mount these attacks in the future. She’s just not credible enough any more to carry it off even if she turns out to be right with one of these things someday. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/144 "2006-05-23T16:21:54Z")
> [@samm](#): > > …and there’s nothing classier than repeatedly telling someone else they have no class… You have some problem with me? If you’d like to squeeze in a defense of **Zoe** , I suggest you act quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/145 "2006-05-23T16:34:55Z")
It will be unfortunate to have this thread resolved so unsatisfactorily, since integrity and personal ethics should dictate that if you call someone out, you see it through or apologize. We will also miss out on the Word of **Shodan’s** Dad. It was eye-opening, nevertheless, to see how ignorant many people are of privacy and confidentiality matters in a professional relationship. Just to sum up, since this seemed to persist in the face of repeated efforts: The holder of priviledge is the individual who engaged the professional to begin with (when there is no guardian, conservator or other similarly designated person). Other individuals can have no expectation of confidentiality (from the client) when they contact the professional with information about the holder of priviledge. A psychologist, or I presume a physician or attorney or veterinarian or architect is not a designated secret keeper with whom everyone can expect a duty to protect information. “Hey **Qadgop the Mercotan** , I want to fuck my neighbor’s wife. Ha ha! You can’t tell because you’re sworn to secrecy!” It doesn’t work that way. ---
**Author:** ![davenportavenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f8ce5/32.png) [@davenportavenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davenportavenger)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/146 "2006-05-23T16:51:03Z")
Gee thanks, **Zoe**! In one pit thread you’ve managed to denigrate mentally ill people in a far more effective and compact way than Tom Cruise ever could have! Outta sight! ---
**Author:** ![samm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@samm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/147 "2006-05-23T16:52:19Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > You have some problem with me? If you’d like to squeeze in a defense of **Zoe** , I suggest you act quickly. No, I don’t have some problem with you. I just thought you were getting a little boring and redundant. Maybe you should try something like “apologist” for a while. 😉 > [@Excalibre](#): > > Like I said, no class. > [@Excalibre](#): > > Zoe, you ain’t got no class at all. > [@Excalibre](#): > > Trying to deflect by crying about your mental illness demonstrates a serious lack of class > [@Excalibre](#): > > No class at all, Zoe. > [@Excalibre](#): > > Again, you got no class at all, Zoe. I don’t have a defense of **Zoe** , but it seems the “putting perfectly healthy animals to sleep” would have been a better ethics argument than “sharing crazy neice letters.” Hindsight is 20/20. Although, count me among the people who would be interested in hearing from **Shodan** ’s dad before this thread is closed. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/148 "2006-05-23T17:09:35Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Mods, this one needs to be closed. Sorry, but no. We don’t close threads to protect the OP when their Pitting backfires. ---
**Author:** ![SnakesCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4af34b/32.png) [@SnakesCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnakesCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/149 "2006-05-23T18:32:32Z")
I don’t like putting healthy animals to sleep. When I worked at an animal shelter, I cried when I gave the order to put sick kittens to sleep because we didn’t have the funds to treat them and couldn’t risk them infecting the other cats in the shelter. There was a letter to the editor in the local paper yesterday which touches on this topic. A single man in the Army received orders for deployment to Iraq. (damnit) In getting ready for deployment, he tried to find home for his three dogs. The shelters here all said they were full. He was about to take the dogs in for euthanasia when he found someone to take them. If he had not been able to find a place for the dogs, what would you have had him do? Leave them on the side of the road somewhere? Many vets will take healthy animals rather than euthanize them, but there is a limit on how many they can take. A vet has to make his business work, and feeding/sheltering too many homeless animals can cut into your bottom line pretty quickly. If your business doesn’t make money, you have out of work employees to consider as well. It is easy to say you wouldn’t do it, but sometimes choices aren’t as straightforward or simple as you would like them to be. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/150 "2006-05-23T19:01:49Z")
> [@astro](#): > > I scrolled up and own reading & re-reading and trying to figure WTF the “whoosh” comment was all about I think you’ve still missed how she justifies the “whoosh” claim (bolding added): > [@zoe](#): > > Golly gee! I’ve finally earned my wings in the pit…just in time for my **daughter’s graduation from law school** next Saturday. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/151 "2006-05-23T19:03:54Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > I don’t find it embarrassing to apologize when I think I am wrong. I find it disingenuous to say that I think I am wrong just because so many people, many that I admire, disagree with me. How about the people you despise? Cuz we think you’re nuts in this thread too. Go on, just admit it; “I was wrong, I’m sorry”. You’ll feel better afterwards, I promise. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/152 "2006-05-23T20:32:54Z")
**Zoe** , in your exchange with **Bricker** , you might want to consider a proverb he offered up in a thread pitting him a couple years ago: When ten people tell you you’re drunk, go lie down. It was a mark in his favor that, when he realized his actions were so frustrating to so many people, he didn’t defend them to the death. He said, essentially, “Hmm. I’m not necessarily seeing it, but these people aren’t all crazy. Maybe I need to reconsider what I’m doing.” The comment you made about the legal profession wasn’t a whoosh by any definition I’ve ever seen. It wasn’t a subtle joke that people took seriously because they didn’t catch the obscure allusion you were making. It was just a nasty swipe. That’s not a whoosh. And your comments about **vetbridge** are similarly inappropriate. He’s in a difficult situation, but I can certainly see where he’s coming from. As a teaching analogy, imagine this: your student’s estranged father writes you a letter, castigating you for teaching the student such Satanic texts as _The Tempest_, and saying that he’s planning on gaining custody of the student so that you can’t subject him to such soul-damning materials any more. Are you really telling me it’d be inappropriate to call the student’s mother in for a conference about the situation, and share the father’s letter with her? You owe several people an apology. I really hope you’re able to look at the advice without anger or defensiveness and see that. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![samm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@samm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/153 "2006-05-23T20:53:57Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > As a teaching analogy, imagine this: your student’s estranged father writes you a letter, castigating you for teaching the student such Satanic texts as _The Tempest_, and saying that he’s planning on gaining custody of the student so that you can’t subject him to such soul-damning materials any more. Are you really telling me it’d be inappropriate to call the student’s mother in for a conference about the situation, and share the father’s letter with her? Sorry, but that’s not an accurate analogy. The analogy would go more like this: A student is paying you $1,000s of dollars per month for information that he may or may not need and his father is questioning your profiting off of his son as well as his son’s mental health. Then the question is: Are you telling me it’d be inappropriate to call the student in for a conference and share the father’s letter with him? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/154 "2006-05-23T21:08:00Z")
> [@samm](#): > > Sorry, but that’s not an accurate analogy. The analogy would go more like this: A student is paying you $1,000s of dollars per month for information that he may or may not need and his father is questioning your profiting off of his son as well as his son’s mental health. Then the question is: Are you telling me it’d be inappropriate to call the student in for a conference and share the father’s letter with him? I’ll work with your analogy, but we gotta modify it: the student’s **mom** is paying me (or, rather, the private school I run) thousands of dollars per term for education he may or may not need (like all education), and the father tells me the mom is crazy and that he’s going to be trying to get custody of the son, because his son doesn’t need a fancy private-school education. Remember, my obligation is to the student, but the mom’s the one paying the bills. That’s where we need to take the analogy, if you want to involve money in it like that. We need a situation in which: -I’m providing service to the client (the student/dog) -Requested by a bill payer (the mom/dog owner) -To the best of my ability -And a third party with no legal ties to the client (the dad/niece) -Questions the bill payer’s sanity -And threatens to intervene in such a way as to terminate my ability to provide service to the client -and in a manner that I am almost certain the bill payer will not appreciate. In such circumstances, I see a personal obligation to let the bill payer know what’s going on behind her back. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/155 "2006-05-23T21:14:40Z")
Your analogy is on point, Daniel. ---
**Author:** ![samm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@samm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/156 "2006-05-23T21:23:12Z")
Okay, wait, wait, wait. It’s not _quite_ right yet. Let’s keep going here. The mom is paying not only for her son, but for random children that she picks up off the street who she thinks are stupid and need an education at her expense. And you have also wondered about her mental health yourself. I don’t know whether it is ethical or not to share the letter. I’m going to guess it IS ethical since everyone here has harped on it for four pages. But from my perspective, it is POSSIBLE that you COULD create the (false!) impression that you are worried more about your pocketbook than you are about your client in such a situation. Maybe that is why it seems questionable to some? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/157 "2006-05-23T21:27:52Z")
> [@samm](#): > > Okay, wait, wait, wait. It’s not _quite_ right yet. Let’s keep going here. The mom is paying not only for her son, but for random children that she picks up off the street who she thinks are stupid and need an education at her expense. Nope–you’re pulling in extraneous variables, and may as well add the fact that the children she brings in sometimes bark or meow. In our society, it’s not uncommon for people to adopt stray animals off the street, but it’s extremely uncommon for people to pay for random children off the street and their education. (You could make that work by theorizing a scholarship fund, but that’s not necessary to the analogy’s central point, and detracts from it by excising the personal relationship between client and bill-payer). > [@](#): > > And you have also wondered about her mental health yourself. Sure thing–so what if I have? I’m not in a position to judge her mental health: I’m in a position to provide my services as competently as possible. > [@](#): > > I don’t know whether it is ethical or not to share the letter. I’m going to guess it IS ethical since everyone here has harped on it for four pages. But from my perspective, it is POSSIBLE that you COULD create the (false!) impression that you are worried more about your pocketbook than you are about your client in such a situation. Maybe that is why it seems questionable to some? I can see how some people could get that false impression from his continuing to provide services to the clients and continuing to take money from the billpayer. But sharing the letter? No: that’s just showing a modcum of respect to the bill-payer, giving her information that someone’s going behind her back. Thanks, **you with the face**! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![samm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/858c86/32.png) [@samm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samm)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/158 "2006-05-23T21:50:46Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > In our society, it’s not uncommon for people to adopt stray animals off the street, but it’s extremely uncommon for people to pay for random children off the street and their education. True. But I don’t think it’s uncommon in our society for people to pay for their own children’s education and I do think it is extremely uncommon for people to have dozens of pets, be “obsessive” as to their care, go to the vet at least once a week, and choose state of the art treatment every time. I also think it is extremely uncommon to spend an average of $800 a week on pets. So maybe there’s no good way to make this analogy “apples to apples.” ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/159 "2006-05-23T22:32:15Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > I can only extrapolate from human medicine, which is _not_ the same [as veterinary medicine]. So . . . can I take this paper cone off my head then? (I’m keeping the flea collar though. It’s worked wonders.) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2006, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497/160 "2006-05-24T02:43:37Z")
> [@samm](#): > > True. But I don’t think it’s uncommon in our society for people to pay for their own children’s education and I do think it is extremely uncommon for people to have dozens of pets, be “obsessive” as to their care, go to the vet at least once a week, and choose state of the art treatment every time. I also think it is extremely uncommon to spend an average of $800 a week on pets. So maybe there’s no good way to make this analogy “apples to apples.” Not purely apples to apples, but I pulled out what I believe are the salient points above, since **Zoe** seemed to be having trouble relating professionally to the situation. Everything you describe as uncommon before might properly be analogous to an extremely doting and involved parent who spares no expense for their own children. Daniel [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vetbridges-obligation-to-recognize-veterinary-ethics/357497.md?page=9)