# Veterinarian brags about killing a cat **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 21, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224 "2015-04-21T21:00:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/101 "2015-04-24T11:40:29Z")
I completely misunderstand this bit of an otherwise informative post: > [@Dogzilla](#): > > That’s why, when you pay for euthanasia, they start an IV line and give three different injections. The first two are for the owner – it’s just valium … But yeah, even if this was the perfect clean kill, totally fast and painless, you do wonder if that’s the only one… She seems very proud of it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/102 "2015-04-24T12:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > TNR really is the only humane way to solve the problem. That and education. Many people really don’t understand the importance of neutering or spaying their pets. The feral cat problem is a human caused problem and should be dealt with in a humane fashion. What is inhumane about trap and euthanize? I mean, kudos to your and whatever members of the veterinary community are willing to donate time, clinical supplies for spaying and neutering, and recovery space prior to returning the feral cat to its colony, but if the goal is to reduce the feral cat population, you point out all the problems with poison, but never once seem to address the fact that the first part of TNR is T. That is, once you have the cat, you spend the time and effort to anesthetize it, remove its reproductive organs, stitch it up, care for it until it’s recovered, and release back into the colony. It seems clear to me that if you simply put the animal to sleep after trapping it, your supposed goal of reducing the colony size would be reached quicker. What am I missing? ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/103 "2015-04-24T13:10:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What am I missing? Wikipedia has [some discussion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap-neuter-return#Rationale_and_effectiveness_of_TNR) with cites. One argument – it’s cheaper to neuter and release than to euthanize. > [@](#): > > In Port Orange, Florida a TNR program started in 2013 in the city’s business areas resulted in fewer stray cats and money saved. In the first year, 214 cats were sterilized for $13,000, which was much less than over $50,000 spent in 2010, when most of the impounded cats were euthanized. A further estimated $123,000 was saved for not having to impound the offspring of the now spayed cats. Another is that it’s more effective. > [@](#): > > It is extremely difficult to remove every cat in a particular location, and most locations are not sufficiently isolated to prevent migration of new cats into the ecological vacuum created by cat removal. If there is sufficient food and shelter, new cats will move in from nearby areas, and survivors of the removal program will continue to reproduce until the maximum carrying capacity is reached again. Many local and state governments have turned to TNR as a **more effective** and humane approach to control feral cat populations. This is similar to the [sterile insect technique](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterile_insect_technique) to control malaria. Make animals waste their time mating with sterile animals and it’s more effective than trying to kill them all with brute force. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/104 "2015-04-24T13:22:38Z")
> [@flatlined](#): > > For those of you who are advocating just killing those poor critters for the sin of being alive and homeless, how many are you willing to kill a day? How many you got? > [@](#): > > And how would you do it? Feral cats and fast and slinky, so if you shoot them and just wound them and they run away, what are you going to do then? Let them suffer? Shoot them. In the photos, it appears to have been a head or neck shot, which is relatively quick. It is no different from any other form of hunting - track down a wounded animal and finish it off. **steronz** , your cites are not particularly convincing - > [@](#): > > On closer examination, though, what that study showed was that 47 percent of the cat population was removed through an intensive adoption program, another 11 percent was euthanized, and at least another 6 percent was killed by automobiles or moved off campus to nearby woods. TNR itself appears to have accomplished almost nothing—and it took 11 years to do it. The studies authors, found that “any population-level effects” from TNR alone “were minimal.”[140] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/105 "2015-04-24T13:27:24Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > One argument – it’s cheaper to neuter and release than to euthanize. > > Another is that it’s more effective. If only the Nazi’s had figured this out. \*Oh no, he didn’t!!! Flees…\* ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/106 "2015-04-24T14:16:21Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Wikipedia has [some discussion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trap-neuter-return#Rationale_and_effectiveness_of_TNR) with cites. > > One argument – it’s cheaper to neuter and release than to euthanize. > > > [@](#): > > > > In Port Orange, Florida a TNR program started in 2013 in the city’s business areas resulted in fewer stray cats and money saved. In the first year, 214 cats were sterilized for $13,000, which was much less than over $50,000 spent in 2010, when most of the impounded cats were euthanized. A further estimated $123,000 was saved for not having to impound the offspring of the now spayed cats. No, that’s not what the citation says. The footnote on the Wikipedia page claims it drew its information from [this article.](http://www.news-journalonline.com/article/20130507/NEWS/305079948) Here’s what the article says: > [@News-Journal](#): > > In her report, Milhalic said 214 cats were sterilized since last May at a total cost of about $13,000 to Port Orange. > . > . > . > Port Orange in 2010 spent more than $50,000 impounding mostly stray cats at the Halifax Humane Society shelter, where most ultimately were put to death. How many cats were put to death for the $50,000? That’s the problem with comparing the $50K spent in 2010 with the May 2013 - May 2014 period. We know the May 2013-14 period was $13K spent on 214 cats, but we don’t know how many cats were euthanized in 2010 for $50K. My first assumption is that, contrary to your claim, it’s cheaper to trap and euthanize instead of trap, operate on, host for recovery, vaccinate, and release. I welcome a cite to the contrary, but on the face of it, the latter steps seem obviously more expensive than the former. The $123K savings was an estimate on how many cats those 214 would have produced if not sterilized. It hardly seems controversial to point out that killing those cats after capture would also have sharply limited their fecundity. > [@](#): > > Another is that it’s more effective. This claim is contradicted by the Wikipedia article itself: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > On closer examination, though, what that study showed was that 47 percent of the cat population was removed through an intensive adoption program, another 11 percent was euthanized, and at least another 6 percent was killed by automobiles or moved off campus to nearby woods. TNR itself appears to have accomplished almost nothing—and it took 11 years to do it. The studies authors, found that “any population-level effects” from TNR alone “were minimal.” The footnote for that claim links [to this article](http://www.takepart.com/article/2014/03/31/sorry-cat-lovers-trap-neuter-release-flat-out-doesnt-work), titled, “Sorry, Cat Lovers: Trap-Neuter-Return Simply Doesn’t Work.” From that article: > [@](#): > > TNR advocates generally cite a handful of studies as evidence that this method works. The pick of the litter is a 2003 study that supporters say shows TNR enabled the University of Central Florida to reduce the feral cat population on its Orlando campus by 66 percent. On closer examination, though, what that study showed was that 47 percent of the cat population was removed through an intensive adoption program, another 11 percent was euthanized, and at least another 6 percent was killed by automobiles or moved off campus to nearby woods. TNR itself appears to have accomplished almost nothing—and it took 11 years to do it. > > By email, the lead author of that study, Julie K. Levy, told me that adoption is a common component of TNR programs. She added, “I’d hate to speculate about what the outcome would have been without some cat removal, as that introduces a lot of uncountable variables.” But Levy, who remains a TNR advocate, was part of a team that subsequently examined just that question in two large-scale TNR programs in San Diego County, Calif., and Alachua County, Fla. She and her coauthors found that “any population-level effects” from TNR alone “were minimal.” I believe these cite effectively refute your belief that TNR is effective or less costly. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/107 "2015-04-24T14:26:30Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > This is similar to the [sterile insect technique](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterile_insect_technique) to control malaria. Make animals waste their time mating with sterile animals and it’s more effective than trying to kill them all with brute force. Forgot to debunk this claim. The sterile insect technique involves insects. This is a key difference, because the insects are sterile yet retain mating behaviors. So what happens is exactly what you surmise: many of the insects mate with sterile partners, drastically reducing their aggregate offspring numbers. But cats are spayed by removal of the ovaries and uterus. Done correctly, this prevents the female from going into estrus (heat) and male cats will not “waste time” mating with her. (A tiny minority of cats and dogs still go into heat after being spayed; this is generally the result of a botched operation). Male cats are neutered, and some still display roaming and mating behaviors. But this behavior won’t stop a female cat from also accepting fertile cats as suitors. In short, neither spaying or neutering has the effect you’re describing, so far as I can discover. I welcome a cited correction on this point, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Pedro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/919ad9/32.png) [@Pedro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pedro)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/108 "2015-04-24T17:34:36Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > One argument – it’s cheaper to neuter and release than to euthanize. Damn. Common sense is so fallible. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/109 "2015-04-25T21:56:27Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Thanks for saying what I would have. I suspect Omar has a vision issue on top of a brain issue. > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > > [@steronz](#): > > > > One argument – it’s cheaper to neuter and release than to euthanize. > > If only the Nazi’s had figured this out. > > \*Oh no, he didn’t!!! > > Flees…\* Along w/the brain issue and vision issue, you can add a heart issue. What an incredibly sick fucking thing to say. Also ignorant, since the Nazis did indeed sterilize as well as murder, but who cares as long as Omar got to boost his rep as an I’M SO EDGY tasteless shit-heel. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/110 "2015-04-26T02:34:25Z")
Has the TNR issue been settled? No one defending it has returned to answered the cited rebuttals. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/111 "2015-04-26T05:46:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Has the TNR issue been settled? No one defending it has returned to answered the cited rebuttals. It doesnt have anything to do with this thread, **Bricker,** as the crazed bitch shot and killed someones \*house pet. \* So this thread has nothing to do with feral cat controls, and dragging that into it is just cruel. So take your “cited rebuttals” roll them up and cram them where the sun dont shine, OK? ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/112 "2015-04-26T06:42:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Has the TNR issue been settled? No one defending it has returned to answered the cited rebuttals. Not all TNR programs are alike. This study might be of interest: [Effect of high-impact targeted trap-neuter-return and adoption of community cats on cat intake to a shelter](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023314001841) It suggests that much better outcomes are possible targeting a larger percentage of cats within smaller areas, rather than random pickups over multiple communities. This would be in conjunction with community education and outreach, and coordination with adoption services. If you notice, in both this study and your cite, about half of the cats are adopted after being neutered; certainly that has to be the ideal outcome whenever possible. For the cats deemed suitable for return to colonies, success depends on the specific communities in question. Many people want to tend to these colonies, without the problems of breeding behavior and the subsequent kitten population. Cats unsuitable for adoption or return would be euthanized. Ultimately, I don’t think a single prong method is ideal, and programs should be designed that best serve the particular circumstances of each community. A program that works in rural Pennsylvania would probably not be the most effective solution for Philadelphia. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/113 "2015-04-26T09:47:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It doesnt have anything to do with this thread, **Bricker,** as the crazed bitch shot and killed someones \*house pet. \* So this thread has nothing to do with feral cat controls, and dragging that into it is just cruel. So take your “cited rebuttals” roll them up and cram them where the sun dont shine, OK? No one with half a brain takes Supreme Court Justice Bricker seriously- well apart from himself- so not much point even responding to him **DrDeth**. Quite a few pricks have emerged in this thread however. Omar Little needs to be shortened up. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/114 "2015-04-26T14:00:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What am I missing? Well, there’s the explaining you have to do when you trap/treat the wrong animal. I’m pretty sure “I fixed your cat without your permission.” is less of a PR debacle than “I killed your cat.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/115 "2015-04-26T15:09:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It doesnt have anything to do with this thread, **Bricker,** as the crazed bitch shot and killed someones \*house pet. \* So this thread has nothing to do with feral cat controls, and dragging that into it is just cruel. So take your “cited rebuttals” roll them up and cram them where the sun dont shine, OK? 1. So far as I am aware, the claim that the animal killed was a house pet and not feral is, at best, unresolved. Perhaps you could remind me in which post you feel the issue was definitively settled if you disagree? 2. Even if it had been resolved, the efficacy of TNR was offered up earlier without complaint that it was irrelevant to the thread. Why should it be permissible to extol the supposed virtues of TNR without demur, but the rebuttals of those claims must go unheard? ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/116 "2015-04-26T15:14:05Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Well, there’s the explaining you have to do when you trap/treat the wrong animal. I’m pretty sure “I fixed your cat without your permission.” is less of a PR debacle than “I killed your cat.” I know somebody that that happened to. Cat: I’ll go live somewhere else. Owner : Where the hell did Cat go? A few weeks pass. Owner: Cat is back. Rejoice. Owner: What’s this blood? OMG Cat’s balls are missing. Cat: Fuck those bastards, I came back! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/117 "2015-04-26T15:14:53Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Well, there’s the explaining you have to do when you trap/treat the wrong animal. I’m pretty sure “I fixed your cat without your permission.” is less of a PR debacle than “I killed your cat.” The study quoted by **camille** above differentiates, confidently, between stray cats and owned cats. Is that study flawed in that respect? I infer from that separation that there exists a reliable (if not perfect) method by which the study’s authors concluded they were dealing with house pets when they were. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/118 "2015-04-26T15:20:59Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > No one with half a brain takes Supreme Court Justice Bricker seriously- well apart from himself- so not much point even responding to him **DrDeth**. This seems to be an open admission that the actual points I raised are unassailable, and the only avenue open to you was an insult to me. Was it such an admission? Or did you also have a devastating array of factual rebuttals held in reserve for such a challenge? Because if you did, and we are supposed to be fighting ignorance here, then I’d ask you to share them. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/119 "2015-04-26T15:53:56Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The study quoted by **camille** above differentiates, confidently, between stray cats and owned cats. Is that study flawed in that respect? I infer from that separation that there exists a reliable (if not perfect) method by which the study’s authors concluded they were dealing with house pets when they were. These days most pet cats are chipped. Cats wearing collars are not feral either. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2015, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224/120 "2015-04-26T19:15:02Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#): > > These days most pet cats are chipped. Cats wearing collars are not feral either. Agreed, on both counts. I’d be absolutely shocked to learn the slain animal in the OP was wearing a collar. I suppose it could have been chipped. If the body of the animal was recovered, and proved to be neither chipped nor collared, would that support an inference that the animal was not a pet? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/veterinarian-brags-about-killing-a-cat/718224.md?page=7)