# Viability of a two state Israel Palestine solution in the moderate term **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [January 31, 2024, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923 "2024-01-31T18:06:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/41 "2024-02-01T22:54:22Z")
**MrDibble** is South African, and was referring to using sanctions to help end apartheid (and **DSeid** saying the situations aren’t comparable). ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/42 "2024-02-01T22:55:55Z")
Ahh, thank you for the clarification. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/43 "2024-02-01T23:15:36Z")
I looked into the current state of Israeli politics and it’s hard to be optimistic at the moment. There is only one Israeli Jewish party that is in favor of the two-state solution, Yesh Atid, and even they don’t seem particularly enthusiastic about it. They have 24 members in the Knesset, out of 120. There are also 10 MKs who represent Arab parties. So together that’s a little more than 25 percent support for a two-state solution. And of course I’d imagine that that support has gone down in recent months. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/44 "2024-02-01T23:48:00Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > There is only one Israeli Jewish party that is in favor of the two-state solution Say what? That is very incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/45 "2024-02-01T23:49:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Netanyahu isn’t in “All Muslims Must Die!” territory, but he’s still far enough radical to be part of the problem, not part of the solution. Absolutely. he has gotta go. > [@InfraBlue](#): > > Ytzhak Rabin, Prime Minister under the Labor Party, expanded settlements, Yes, each time in response to acts of terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![zimaane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a3d4f5/32.png) [@zimaane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zimaane)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/46 "2024-02-01T23:56:06Z")
You are correct. I missed Labor with 4 seats who are also in favor of the two-state solution. But are there any other parties with MKs actively advocating a two-state solution? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/47 "2024-02-02T00:03:30Z")
> [@zimaane](#): > > You are correct. I missed Labor with 4 seats who are also in favor of the two-state solution. As well as Yisrael Beitainu, which might be a more right wing party but supports a two state solution. So the entire opposition is pro two state solution. That’s not to say that there aren’t far too many opponents of a two state solution in power at the moment. Polls show them taking heavy losses in any upcoming election, and we can only hope that indeed happens, and soon. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/48 "2024-02-02T00:07:50Z")
Why advocate when there is no current realistic path? Without advocacy support drops more. Less support less advocacy. Would things change if there was perceived to be a partner and circumstance that could deliver a solution with security? Could a next generation of Fatah leadership be able to do that? Or would they be quickly killed by those whose mindset is as of a violence prone version of @InfraBlue’s? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/49 "2024-02-02T06:11:00Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > _Accepting_ that as an anti-Zionist your take is that Israel is the oppressor, maybe even evil Countries can’t be evil. > [@DSeid](#): > > Pressure that is solely the unilateral You say this like there isn’t equivalent pressure on the Palestinian side. > [@DSeid](#): > > a unilateral move on their part Ceasefires don’t have to be unilateral. > [@DSeid](#): > > Nor does it seem likely any unilateral action by them other than dismantling the state and all Jews moving out bring any halt to hostilities. Aah well, if you want the perfect to be the enemy of the good… you think all hostilities ended in South Africa when the Apartheid government caved to sanctions? Far from it. Doesn’t mean them caving wasn’t the right thing to do. > [@DSeid](#): > > The situations are not comparable. I disagree. Israeli exceptionalism is as convincing as the American kind. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/50 "2024-02-02T16:24:57Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@InfraBlue](#): > > > > Ytzhak Rabin, Prime Minister under the Labor Party, expanded settlements, > > Yes, each time in response to acts of terrorism. If that was really Rabin’s reason for expanding Israeli settlements in the occupied territories, it seems like an incredibly dumbass and counterproductive response. Was he thinking that the situation was some kind of game, where if your side commits a terrorism then my side is awarded a penalty in the form of taking over some of your land? That’s not the way that rational grownups deal with a territorial sovereignty dispute, if they are serious about both sides having legitimate claims to the homeland. I remain unconvinced that any Israeli leader who ever endorsed settlement expansion was ever really serious about supporting Palestinians’ rights to a Palestinian state. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/51 "2024-02-02T16:44:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > wasn’t the right thing to do. Again I’ve no interest in this thread debating various concepts of “right”; more what is possible. BDS only pressures one side and does nothing absolutely nothing to have the other side deliver on the item they must _minimally_ bring to any deal. No amount of pressure of any sort would work without Israel getting satisfactory assurances that the other side can and will deliver security and is acting in good faith. That’s not a difference between perfect and good; it is the difference between possibly good and completely worthless. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/52 "2024-02-02T17:02:22Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Again I’ve no interest in this thread debating various concepts of “right”; “Right” here has nothing to do with morality. I mean “right” as in the practical, sensible thing. > [@DSeid](#): > > BDS only pressures one side Nobody else is doing it. Plenty of other groups already sanction the other side. > [@DSeid](#): > > does nothing absolutely nothing to have the other side deliver on the item they must _minimally_ bring to any deal That’s not their purpose. That’s like berating the Red Cross because they don’t save animals. > [@DSeid](#): > > No amount of pressure of any sort would work without Israel getting satisfactory assurances that the other side can and will deliver security and is acting in good faith. Absent pressure, Israel would be happy to just go on with the status quo, the way the South African Apartheid government did for decades. > [@DSeid](#): > > completely worthless Oh, I think it’s clear from the amount of pushback BDS gets that it’s far from worthless. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/53 "2024-02-02T17:04:39Z")
Sorry to interrupt, but I missed what “BDS” means. Apparently not a Korean boy band? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/54 "2024-02-02T17:27:46Z")
Boycott Divest Sanctions. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/55 "2024-02-02T17:29:08Z")
> **[Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions)** > > Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) is a nonviolent Palestinian-led movement promoting boycotts, divestments, and economic sanctions against Israel. Its objective is to pressure Israel to meet what the BDS movement describes as Israel's obligations under international law, defined as withdrawal from the occupied territories, removal of the separation barrier in the West Bank, full equality for Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel, and "respecting, protecting, and promoting the righ BDS is m... ---
**Author:** ![WreckingCrew](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wreckingcrew/32/4080_2.png) [@WreckingCrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WreckingCrew)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/56 "2024-02-02T17:31:07Z")
I will cross post something I just put into the US support of Israel thread: Biden administration placing economic sanctions on West Bank extremists. See the announcement here: [https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/02/01/executive-order-on-imposing-certain-sanctions-on-persons-undermining-peace-security-and-stability-in-the-west-bank/](https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/presidential-actions/2024/02/01/executive-order-on-imposing-certain-sanctions-on-persons-undermining-peace-security-and-stability-in-the-west-bank/) Also, a US Treasury alert on what this could mean. [https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/FinCEN\_Alert\_Extremist\_Violence\_FINAL\_2.1.24.pdf](https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/FinCEN_Alert_Extremist_Violence_FINAL_2.1.24.pdf) Old friend MK Bezalel Smotrich, head of the Religious Zionist Party, is not happy: “The ‘settler violence’ campaign is an antisemitic lie that enemies of Israel disseminate to smear the pioneering settlers and settlement enterprise, and to harm them and thus smear the entire State of Israel…President Biden is wrong about the citizens of the State of Israel and the **heroic settlers** …" [https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-784732](https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-784732) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/57 "2024-02-02T17:39:03Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If that was really Rabin’s reason for expanding Israeli settlements in the occupied territories, it seems like an incredibly dumbass and counterproductive response. Was he thinking that the situation was some kind of game, where if your side commits a terrorism then my side is awarded a penalty in the form of taking over some of your land? When it comes to violent settlers, if they are clashing with Palestinian civilians/police/army today, they will be clashing with Israeli civilians/police/army tomorrow. They tried that trick with Hamas, and everybody can see how well that worked out. Rabin himself was assassinated. > [@DSeid](#): > > Boycott Divest Sanctions Has it not been the case for a while that products from illegal settlements are sanctioned, not allowed to be labelled “made in Israel” for trade purposes, etc., at least in the EU? P.S. Tel-Aviv is already the world’s most expensive city to live in. Is that viable? (I suppose somebody has to be #1, but it’s not like Israelis make _that_ much money, and I am not convinced that Israeli economic and political policy is that forward-looking.) It also means, I suppose, that any real sanctions and/or economic collapse will be felt by millions of people in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/58 "2024-02-02T18:10:38Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > BDS only pressures one side and does nothing absolutely nothing to have the other side deliver on the item they must _minimally_ bring to any deal. Yeah, but that’s generally the case with pressure movements such as boycotts. They put pressure specifically on the more powerful side in a conflict, because that’s the side that has less incentive to change the status quo. [ETA: As MrDibble basically already said more concisely a couple posts ago. Never mind?] To borrow the analogy with South Africa employed earlier, the 1980s divestment-and-sanctions movement against the South African government didn’t place any conditions on the African National Congress to renounce violent resistance or terrorist acts. Its purpose was to say to the South African apartheid government “Our willingness to continue associating with you will depend on your ceasing to unjustly oppress these people under your control.” Irrespective of the crimes indisputably committed by some militants among those oppressed people. Divestment/sanctions/boycott-type pressure movements are not about setting out specific conditions on both sides required to achieve successful conflict resolution. That comes later, if we’re lucky. What such movements are about is getting the more powerful side to be willing to change the status quo. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/59 "2024-02-02T18:56:49Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > P.S. Tel-Aviv is already the world’s most expensive city to live in Naah. It’s in the top 10, sure, but more like no. 8 or so. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2024, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/60 "2024-02-02T22:57:49Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I believe Israel has forever rejected a two-state solution even in the face of pressure from the UN and the G7 and the US. > > > January 23, 2024 > > > > The United Nations chief warned Israel on Tuesday that [Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu](https://apnews.com/article/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-war-political-campaign-f40539425a1d6b6928a99a9d2e6d977c) ’s rejection of a two-state solution will indefinitely prolong a conflict that is threatening global peace and emboldening extremists everywhere. It’s probably as good of a place as any to ask this: there was a lot of talk immediately after the attacks that Netanyahu’s political future was over due to a combination of the feeling that his policies led to the attacks being possible and even amongst his supporters that the attacks were a catastrophically massive failure of his most important job that happened on his watch and there was no way he could stay in power in the long term. My understanding of the internal politics of Israel isn’t particularly deep. For those more knowledgeable than myself, its four months later and Netanyahu doesn’t appear to be going anywhere anytime soon. Is he just being the war leader who is going to be rejected once the crisis has passed, or was the initial judgment that his political future was doomed in error? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923.md?page=4)