# Viability of a two state Israel Palestine solution in the moderate term **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [January 31, 2024, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923 "2024-01-31T18:06:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/81 "2024-02-03T18:07:04Z")
Tell me you didn’t read the whole article without _telling_ me you didn’t read the whole article. And also, fail to address the rest of my post. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/82 "2024-02-03T18:09:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Tell me you didn’t read the whole article without _telling_ me you didn’t read the whole article. I know, before you linked to it, I thought you would have read it first. > [@MrDibble](#): > > And also, fail to address the rest of my post. Yes, and…? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/83 "2024-02-03T18:11:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I know, before you linked to it, I thought you would have read it first. Oh, I read the whole thing. Unlike you, obviously, if you think harping on the _title_ refutes anything. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and…? and … obviously you have no counterargument. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/84 "2024-02-03T18:13:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > and … obviously you have no counterargument. That is _your_ counter argument- which of course means- you have none. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/85 "2024-02-03T18:23:28Z")
No, I made this original argument: > [@MrDibble](#): > > Like I already said, plenty of places and orgs already sanction Palestinians _without_ equivalently sanctioning Israel. … such as all the places that still sanctioned Gaza _after_ 2007. Or supported the Israeli blockade. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/86 "2024-02-03T18:44:45Z")
Trying to advance discussion… What may be the impact and fallout, specifically in the aftermath phase, of the UNRWA possibly getting shut down. > **[The 8 Days That Roiled the U.N.’s Top Agency in Gaza](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/03/world/middleeast/united-nations-gaza-unrwa.html)** > > The crisis that threatens the future of the main United Nations agency in Gaza, amid a humanitarian disaster, began at a routine meeting between diplomats in Tel Aviv. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/87 "2024-02-03T19:22:33Z")
Lots more dead, I’d think. Also a vacuum for aid that I’m sure some other regional players would be all too happy to fill. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/88 "2024-02-03T19:51:18Z")
Not sure if any other players regional or otherwise want to fill that void. Some may posture as if they do but clearly another player that will also contain members of Hamas and their enablers wouldn’t be allowed in by Israel. And they all know that. Which will leave Israel stuck with doing it themselves. Or, in order to avoid doing that on the ground significantly assisting other on the ground groups. I am wondering several things. The immediate impact of Israel having to be responsible for the job. The longer term impact of having what from the Israeli POV was a bad actor out. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/89 "2024-02-04T04:59:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The idea was- as long as you are committing terrorism, I will be building settlements. Stop terrorism I will stop settlements. Sure, as long as the Zionists would continue to oppress the Palestinians, the militant Palestinians would respond with terrorism, giving the Zionists the pretext to continue their arrogation of the West Bank. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/90 "2024-02-04T05:01:17Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > On the Palestinian side you have a group that feels genocide of Jews (not just Israelis) is currently right, to those who feel just Israelis, to those who feel only a solution that includes a Palestine right to return is right, to those who want a one state with no Jewish character to those open to some two state solution depending on details as just. And probably other thoughts. > > On the Israeli side you have those who believe in a Biblical greater Israel and other settler minded mindsets but a larger group I think of those who want to live with safety in their country however it can be assured. That is a… weirdly asymmetrical description of the ranges of viewpoints involved. The various genocidal viewpoints of some subsets of Palestinians are explicitly and separately enumerated, while the viewpoints of Israelis who feel that genocide of Palestinians is currently right—some of whom are prominent in Israel’s current government—are euphemistically lumped in under the umbrella of “other settler minded mindsets”. > [@DrDeth](#): > > No, because you see the idea is that those settlements make that area more likely to be part of greater Israel, not Palestine. In other words, the more you bomb, the smaller you nation will get. […] > > As long as Palestine shows that […] then it has no right to be a nation. […] > > Palestine has no right to be a nation as long as it insists on being a terrorist nation. Like I said, these are not the positions of anybody who takes seriously the concept that both sides have legitimate claims to the homeland. On the contrary, they imply that only Israelis are entitled to control the entire homeland, parts of which they can at their discretion choose to transfer limited control over, based on whatever conditions they choose to set. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/91 "2024-02-04T05:10:54Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Unfortunately the one state option apparently most palatable to Israelis according to polling I cited earlier would be one that limited Palestinian democratic participation. That would make apartheid claims actually valid. It’s been an apartheid state since its formation in 1948 during which the Zionists ethnically cleansed much of the areas that had come under their control leaving a drastically reduced Palestinian population there during the civil war that occurred up to the time of the Zionists’ declaration of the establishment of the State of Israel, and continuing through to the larger 1948 War. ---
**Author:** ![InfraBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infrablue/32/6366_2.png) [@InfraBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfraBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/92 "2024-02-04T05:17:09Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Once again “right” or “rights” is not the intended subject (although of course I have no control over that): it is what is possible. But without taking rights into account you ignore the crux of the conflict in Palestine, the rights of the Palestinians that the Zionists necessarily violate in order to perpetuate their exclusivist state. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/93 "2024-02-04T05:35:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The various genocidal viewpoints of some subsets of Palestinians are explicitly and separately enumerated, while the viewpoints of Israelis who feel that genocide of Palestinians is currently right—some of whom are prominent in Israel’s current government Fair cop. The range of what individual elements on each side think is “right” includes forcible displacement, aka ethnic cleansing, a form of genocide, on the Israeli side. True they are an extremist element even within Bibi’s government (compared to a core belief of Hamas) but they are there and not without representation and power. Many more who don’t wish for genocide but are willing to accept deaths and displacement as a consequence of rooting out Hamas. Which illustrates the point I was making all the more. Managing these very disparate perspectives of “right”, matters. Finding enough on each side that can find a solution acceptable and then deliver on defanging those whose views of “right” are not with the overlap, matters to what is in the realm of the possible. What each of us as outsiders think is “right” or who is what percent “right” or “wronged” matters much less. And as a conversation has been rehashed sufficiently in past threads. This thread is not intended to be that discussion yet again. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/94 "2024-02-04T21:25:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, there are muslim nations/orgs that declare all Jews must die Cite? Bring a solid cite or withdraw your claim. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/95 "2024-02-04T23:29:08Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Bring a solid cite or withdraw your claim. Iran and The Houthi for two. This is not a secret pledge they have made. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/96 "2024-02-04T23:58:33Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Bring a solid cite or withdraw your claim. > **[Doctrine of Hamas](https://www.wilsoncenter.org/article/doctrine-hamas)** _“Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes,” Hamas said in its first [statement](https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp) in the late 1980s._ _The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim. In face of the Jews’ usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised._ > **[Hamas Official Condemned After Calling on Palestinians to Kill Jews](https://www.voanews.com/a/middle-east_hamas-official-condemned-after-calling-palestinians-kill-jews/6171870.html)** > > Fathi Hamad, a member of the movement's top political body, draws outrage from both Israeli and Palestinian officials as well as a U.N. envoy _A senior member of Gaza’s Islamist rulers Hamas has encouraged Palestinians across the globe to kill Jews, drawing outrage from both Israeli and Palestinian officials as well as a U.N. envoy…He continued: “Seven million Palestinians outside, enough warming up, you have Jews with you in every place. You should attack every Jew possible in all the world and kill them.”_ [https://www.jstor.org/stable/25834644](https://www.jstor.org/stable/25834644) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/97 "2024-02-05T00:19:40Z")
Houthi’s are “death to Israel, a curse upon the Jews” Yes a call for genocide by murder of all Israelis, but not “all Jews must die”. Maybe they should just all become very ill? ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/98 "2024-02-05T00:24:31Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Maybe they should just all become very ill? I’m going to blame the kidney stone I had last month on the Houthis. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/99 "2024-02-05T00:48:42Z")
Your own cite said Palestinian leaders were outraged at that, which any decent human being would be. That proves how wrong it is to attribute such a f\*cked-up belief to Palestinian people overall. By bringing this up, you’ve underlined how isolated it is. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/100 "2024-02-05T01:02:19Z")
From your own cite: > Second, it attempted to distinguish between Jews or Judaism and modern Zionism. Hamas said that its fight was against the “racist, aggressive, colonial and expansionist” Zionist project, Israel, but not against Judaism or Jews. Congratulations on making your argument based on a 35-year-old document that was revised years ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923.md?page=6)