# Viability of a two state Israel Palestine solution in the moderate term **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** israel-hamas-war\ **Created:** [January 31, 2024, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923 "2024-01-31T18:06:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/101 "2024-02-05T01:02:34Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > By bringing this up, you’ve underlined how isolated it is. It’s not isolated. The claim was made by a Hamas leader and condemned by a PLO leader. Those are separate organizations. You are sorely mistaken if you don’t think some countries and organizations want all of us troublesome Jews dead. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/102 "2024-02-05T01:08:11Z")
Does the Quran count? [Gharqad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharqad): > In [Islam](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam), the term **gharqad** ([Arabic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): غرقد) is used in some [_ahadith_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith) to describe a type of tree that, according to [Islamic eschatology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_eschatology), will seek to protect the [Jews](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) from the [Muslims](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslims) during a great apocalyptic battle known as [al-Malhamat al-Kubra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Malhama_Al-Kubra) (الملحمة الكبرى), which is prophesied to occur close to the [Day of Judgement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_Judgment). This prophecy asserts that this conflict will take place shortly after the emergence of [al-Masih ad-Dajjal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Masih_ad-Dajjal) (ٱلْمَسِيحُ ٱلدَّجَّالُ, lit. ‘The Deceitful Messiah’), who will falsely present himself as the [Mahdi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahdi) and be followed primarily by the Jewish people, whereas the actual Mahdi will lead a Muslim army against the Dajjal and his followers until the [Second Coming of Jesus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming), after which the Dajjal will be killed.[[1]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharqad#cite_note-Cook_2021-1) According to a _hadith_ attributed to [Abu Huraira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Hurayra), one of [Muhammad’s companions](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companions_of_the_Prophet), all stones and trees except for the gharqad tree will miraculously speak to reveal the location of any Jews taking cover behind them during the war with the Muslims. > > In [Sunni tradition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunni_Islam), [Abu Huraira](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Huraira) reported that the [Islamic prophet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_prophet) [Muhammad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad) said:[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharqad#cite_note-sunnah.com-2) > > > The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: “Oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah!, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!” – But the tree Gharqad will not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. In fairness, a lot of support of Israel by Fundamentalist Christians is predicated upon belief in the Jews needing their own state to exist for the second coming of Jesus to happen, after which all the Jews will die and go to hell or repent and become Christians. Which is textbook genocide, but hey, in both cases this is the Apocalypse we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/103 "2024-02-05T01:08:27Z")
Attributing that to an entire _country_ is madness and you need to walk that back. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/104 "2024-02-05T01:21:22Z")
Jew hatred is madness, yet it widely exists. Who are you to tell me that I need to walk it back? I have to do no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/105 "2024-02-05T01:24:20Z")
Because to believe it of an entire country is prejudice. It amounts to Arabphobia or Islamophobia. ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/106 "2024-02-05T01:33:37Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Because to believe it of an entire country is prejudice. It amounts to Arabphobia or Islamophobia When I speak of a country or an organization, I speak of the leaders and people in power that represent them. It does not mean that every member thinks that, but that’s the message they are part of. Hamas - like it or not, and I certainly don’t - speaks for the people of Gaza. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/107 "2024-02-05T01:41:59Z")
Sorry, Fins, I didn’t notice at first it was you; I was under the mistaken impression I was saying “walk it back” to Dr. Deth. I’m surprised that you would jump in to defend his extremely weak argument when it needs to be refuted and demolished. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/108 "2024-02-05T02:13:32Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > > [@Johanna](#): > > > > Because to believe it of an entire country is prejudice. It amounts to Arabphobia or Islamophobia > > When I speak of a country or an organization, I speak of the leaders and people in power that represent them. It does not mean that every member thinks that, but that’s the message they are part of. > [@Johanna](#): > > Sorry, Fins, I didn’t notice at first it was you; I was under the mistaken impression I was saying “walk it back” to Dr. Deth. I’m surprised that you would jump in to defend his extremely weak argument when it needs to be refuted and demolished Dr.Deth said exactly the same thing. He talked about organizations and nations, which I would take to mean the leaders and people in power, not every single citizen of those nations. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/109 "2024-02-05T02:14:47Z")
I have always respected Abu Hurayrah for the adorable nickname and so on, but that kind of bullshit is to be taken no more seriously in the context of actual politics than > So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that _pertain_ to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. and does not represent any actual national policy as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/110 "2024-02-05T02:37:17Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > and does not represent any actual national policy as far as I know. The request was for a cite of nations _or organizations_, and much as I dislike it, religious sects that actually believe this kind of bullshit have to be taken seriously in the context of actual politics, Muslim, Christian, and Jewish alike. Fundamentalists in the US are some of the most vociferous backers of Israel in America, their votes count in Congressional elections, so mostly Republicans, but Republican and Democratic candidates alike at the very least pander to their beliefs. Beliefs that are predicated upon support of Israel for an end result of the genocide of the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/111 "2024-02-05T04:16:22Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Your own cite said Palestinian leaders were outraged at that, which any decent human being would be. That proves how wrong it is to attribute such a f\*cked-up belief to Palestinian people overall. By bringing this up, you’ve underlined how isolated it is. Nations & orgs. The leadership, not the People. The palestinians "choose’ some fucked up racist leaders. > [@Babale](#): > > Dr.Deth said exactly the same thing. He talked about organizations and nations, which I would take to mean the leaders and people in power, not every single citizen of those nations. Yes. I am sure many palestinians are innocents, they perhaps harbor some degree of anti-semitism, but I doubt if most are in favor of “Killing all Jews”. They just want to get on with their life. That is their terrorist leadership. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/112 "2024-02-05T07:31:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Not sure if any other players regional or otherwise want to fill that void. The PA and Hamas already do, but don’t get the funding that the UNWRA ~~does~~ did. > [@DSeid](#): > > clearly another player that will also contain members of Hamas A frigging 20-employee landscaping company in Gaza would also likely “contain members of Hamas”. Insisting on absolutely no Hamas members being involved in anything in Gaza ever is a non-starter. > [@DSeid](#): > > The immediate impact of Israel having to be responsible for the job. Not sure they have the manpower. They will, of course, have the money, since the US is prepping a fat aid package for them right now (over and above their regular annual $3 billion +.) > [@DSeid](#): > > The longer term impact of having what from the Israeli POV was a bad actor out. Israel is just going to condemn whoever their replacement is, for the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/113 "2024-02-05T14:17:24Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A frigging 20-employee landscaping company in Gaza would also likely “contain members of Hamas”. Insisting on absolutely no Hamas members being involved in anything in Gaza ever is a non-starter. The problem with the UNRWA is not that it has members who are also members of Hamas. As you point out, any group formed of Palestinians is gonna have that problem. The problem with the UNRWA is the fact that their priorities are all out of whack. Instead of building up Gaza into a home for the Palestinian people, they declare that all Palestinians are refugees, even if they are third generation Americans who have never been to Palestine. It declares that cities like Jabalia are “refugee camps”. It does everything in its power to ensure that the Israelis-Palestinian conflict continues. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Israel is just going to condemn whoever their replacement is, for the same reasons. If the replacement is the UN giving Palestinians aid the same way refugees anywhere else on the planet are given aid, I highly doubt that. If a new organization is created specifically to keep the Palestinians as refugees, then yeah, it should and will be criticized for the same reasons. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/114 "2024-02-05T14:44:30Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The problem with the UNRWA is the fact that their priorities are all out of whack. UNRWA didn’t set its own mandate. That’s on the greater UN, not UNRWA. The UN can change that at any time (although doing so in a way that removed refugee status from those Palestinians who _are_ refugees would be … not good.) I’m cool with that status being removed from Palestinians _properly_ resettled in other countries like America _who want it removed_. > [@Babale](#): > > It declares that cities like Jabalia are “refugee camps”. Well, _currently_ a lot of Jabalya is a rubble-filled field of coalesced craters and the empty husks of bombed-out apartment blocks, so “city” is a bit much. But yes, I’m with you, how dared the Palestinians have the temerity to not just stay in shitty plastic tents like _real_ refugees… Well, they’re in a [giant tent city _now_](https://news.sky.com/story/scale-of-vast-tent-city-in-gaza-revealed-with-destruction-leaving-residents-little-to-return-to-13046970), so … I guess they’re real refugees again? Good Job, IDF! They’ve made honest tent-people of those formerly high-living Palestinian fat-cats with their _concrete tenements_ and _roads_. > [@Babale](#): > > If the replacement is the UN giving Palestinians aid the same way refugees anywhere else on the planet are given aid, I highly doubt that. Well, agree to disagree, I guess. > [@Babale](#): > > If a new organization is created specifically to keep the Palestinians as refugees Oh, no, how dare any group cling onto something as terrible as a Right of Return to their own homes! That’s why they retain refugee status. Because they _are_ refugees. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/115 "2024-02-05T15:12:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > But yes, I’m with you, how dared the Palestinians have the temerity to not just stay in shitty plastic tents like _real_ refugees… That’s not my point at all. In fact, it is the complete opposite of my point. Gazans shouldn’t be living in tent cities, and they weren’t. That’s not a problem, that’s wonderful. Tent cities are unsanitary and can lead to all sorts of issues with exposure. My question is why we call Jabalia, a city, a refugee camp, instead of calling it a city. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Oh, no, how dare any group cling onto something as terrible as a Right of Return to their own homes! > > That’s why they retain refugee status. Because they _are_ refugees. OK, then in that case I am a third generation refugee from Morocco and I demand my rIgHt Of ReTuRn. Go ahead and evict the Moroccans who moved into my grandfather’s store. From the Desert to the Sea, Morocco will be FREEEE!!! Surely you see that this is not a sustainable way to run our planet, which is why _no other refugee group on the planet_ follows these rules. In every other case, we focus on making the lives of refugees, oh I don’t know, _better_? Rather than keeping them in the back pocket for political use against evil colonialist Zionists at some unspecified future time. Why not focus on making Gaza (and the West Bank) places that Palestinians will prosper in? That should be the mission of the UNRWA or any group like it, not locking in the status quo and letting Palestinians fester so the opportunity to use them to wipe out Israel in the future isn’t lost. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/116 "2024-02-05T15:25:49Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > My question is why we call Jabalia, a city, a refugee camp, instead of calling it a city. Because it’s a place where refugees stay. Those are called refugee camps. Don’t like the name? Take it up with the UNHCR (which runs a few _camps_ that are almost as old as the UNRWA ones, and just as permanent and citified (although vernacular one-story buildings, not tenements, because they’re mostly built in shitty locations not wanting for land). Nobody regularly questions the refugee status of the Eritreans in Shagarab, the Sahrawi in the Tindouf camps or the Karen in Mae La, though. > [@Babale](#): > > OK, then in that case I am a third generation refugee from Morocco and I demand my rIgHt Of ReTuRn. Hey, one Right of Return per customer, and it looks like you already used yours… > [@Babale](#): > > Surely you see that this is not a sustainable way to run our planet, which is why _no other refugee group on the planet_ follows these rules. I’ve just given you the names of several places and groups where those very much are the rules on the ground. There are lots more. They may not be as unapologetically _open_ about it as UNWRA, but UNHCR maintains _lots_ of refugees in that exact same 3rd and 4th generation limbo. > [@Babale](#): > > Why not focus on making Gaza (and the West Bank) places that Palestinians will prosper in? Israel can lift its economy-strangling blockades and stop stealing fertile land and water from the WB _any_ time it wants to. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/117 "2024-02-05T15:30:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > > [@Babale](#): > > > > Why not focus on making Gaza (and the West Bank) places that Palestinians will prosper in? > > Israel can lift its economy-strangling blockades and stop stealing fertile land and water from the WB _any_ time it wants to. I agree. Israel needs to do that, the authorities in charge of the Palestinians need to work towards building up Palestine rather than terrorism, and the UNRWA needs to be replaced with something that’s focused on making lives better for Palestinians rather than preserving them for political use. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/118 "2024-02-05T15:34:04Z")
If you replace UNWRA with UNHRC (which deals with all the other refugees), I suspect the only thing that will change will be marketing. Like I said, UNHCR keeps long-term regfugees too. Some only 20 years less than 1948. But I’m OK with all 3 of the things on your list happening. Israel can start, though… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/119 "2024-02-05T15:52:02Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If you replace UNWRA with UNHRC (which deals with all the other refugees), I suspect the only thing that will change will be marketing. Obviously my opinion differs, but if you _are_ right, then at least hacing UNHRC handle things directly will at least remove a source of (in your eyes, I gather, illegitimate) criticism. > [@MrDibble](#): > > But I’m OK with all 3 of the things on your list happening. > > Israel can start, though… I’ve said it before, regardless of what is “right” or who “deserves” what, I agree that it will have to be Israel that makes the first move. Israel is a democracy, with a clear path for removing the Ben Gvirs and the Smotriches (and even the Bibis) from power. That’s just not true of the Palestinians. So again, completely disregarding who is “right” or who “deserves” what, realistically, it will _need to be Israel_ that takes the first steps towards peace. That’s not something I disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923/120 "2024-02-05T16:02:51Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Obviously my opinion differs, but if you _are_ right, then at least hacing UNHRC handle things directly will at least remove a source of (in your eyes, I gather, illegitimate) criticism. I have _lots_ of criticism for UNWRA - the corruption and nepotism is a big one - but that Palestinians are still considered refugees, or that the camps are built-up cities now, are neither of them. > [@Babale](#): > > I agree that it will have to be Israel that makes the first move Yep, and I’m with you on why, as well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/viability-of-a-two-state-israel-palestine-solution-in-the-moderate-term/996923.md?page=7)