# Vick's An Eagle! Hide your beagle! **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 14, 2009, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369 "2009-08-14T01:51:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/81 "2009-08-16T21:42:38Z")
[QUOTE= Argent Towers] What is he going to be doing? Hmm, let me see. Living off of his millions of dollars, maybe? Eating steak and lobster every night? Residing in a palatial estate with a giant swimming pool and anything else that he wants? Driving a Maybach or some other insanely expensive car? Hmmmm…what would I do if I were Michael Vick? Oh, dear God - what would I do!!! [/QUOTE] You know Vick is broke, right? ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/82 "2009-08-17T05:10:49Z")
My thoughts: - I don’t endorse cruelty to dogs, but I fail to see how that’s any worse than raising countless animals every year for the sole purpose of slaughtering them for food, or for that matter shooting them in the wild. Even things like training a seeing eye or police dog, while not abusive, are still completely against the natural order. As someone who eats meat regularly (and swats flies, sprays ants, and stomps cockroaches without remorse), I’ve accepted the fact that the life of an animal simply isn’t as valuable as the life of a human, and to argue otherwise is simpleminded at best. What Vick did was wrong, but NOT as bad as domestic violence, or rape, or assault and battery, or failing to pay child support. - The fact that Vick served his time completely eliminates the outrage factor for me, and don’t kid yourself, it’s exactly the same for a lot of football fans. (Yeah, the Eagles fans will get on his case, but whaddya expect from 'em.) I can understand being _uncomfortable_ about his return, or thinking that it’s just a bad idea; that’s just natural. But anyone who makes a huge deal about his past transgressions the whole season is a sanctimonious jerk. If you’re really interested in helping dogs, you can adopt one from a pound, or participate in a spaying and neutering program, or take any number of actions far more helpful than (yes) flogging a dead horse. - Of course no one has the “right” to play in the NFL, not even a first-round draft pick. If the Eagles organization wanted to turn him away, they could have done so with no repercussions. They made their decision, and now, better or worse, they have to honor it. - Don’t ever underestimate how huge star power is in the NFL, both in perception and reality. Why did Brett Favre last at least four seasons after his physical skills were obviously no longer there? Why did the Cardinals even bother bringing in Emmitt Smith? Why did the Chiefs sign a way past his prime Joe Montana when the lack of a powerful offensive line and Jerry Rice pretty much ensured that he’d be clobbered? Why did _anyone_ put up with Deion Sanders? Vick, rightfully or not, was as hot as the sun before he went to prison, and it’s ludicrous to think that _some_ team seeking an infusion of excitement wouldn’t take a chance on him. - Oh lord, ANYTHING but Who Let The Dogs Out being played every Sunday for 16 freaking weeks. I’m pretty sure that would spark far more violent protests than anything involving Vick. 🙂 Carry on… ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/83 "2009-08-17T07:28:42Z")
I saw Vick’s 60 Minutes interview today. He certainly seemed contrite, and has the somewhat lukewarm endorsement of the Humane Society. They want him to be a spokesperson for inner-city kids vs. dogfighting. Apparently he’s already been on the road with them and is meeting their expectations. I just would like to know who in the 21st century is telling their kids to look at professional athletes (or musicians, actors, or politicians) as role models. Seriously, WTF? In the 1950s when we didn’t have a 24 hour news cycle and we assumed signing a ball and smiling = good character, I could kind of see it. We’ve had it proved to us a million times since that these folks are fallible and have feet of clay. It’s not incomprehensible that you might find a role model in the celebrity world, but THESE GUYS ARE NOT ATHLETES/ACTORS/MUSICIANS BECAUSE THEY ARE NICE PEOPLE. They’re those things because they’re good at those skills. Role models should be people you know. Like your parents. A pastor, priest, or rabbi. A teacher. An older sibling. A kid in the neighborhood. Maybe even a celebrity that has chosen to take on a public persona of being a role model (like Tim Tebow). If you aspire to be a pro athlete, then I imagine Mike Vick can be a role model regarding his athletic skills and his (non-existent) training ethic. But that’s it. The sooner we stop having grown adults telling their kids to model their behavior after people they don’t even know just because they have a talent, the sooner we move up the evolutionary ladder. Hippy Jr. is growing up in a house with a sports fan. But as soon as he’s able to understand, he will know that mom and dad are people to model yourself after. We can admire the athleticism of a football player, but we don’t know sh\*t about him off the field. (I even feel this way about the good guys like my favorite ball player of all time, Darrell Green - though DG has spent so many years active in the community. In fact, that makes him a role model - one who happens to have played football.) ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/84 "2009-08-17T08:03:06Z")
I agree with you generally, but I suppose the kids who are latching onto professional athletes as role models are the kids who don’t have the good parents to tell them not to latch onto professional athletes as role models. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/85 "2009-08-17T08:30:23Z")
Seriously, it’s not like kids need to be TOLD to view anyone as role models for them to do so. That’s not how it works. The kids automatically latch onto certain people as role models regardless of whether or not someone else is telling them to. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/86 "2009-08-17T11:37:38Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > We’ve had it proved to us a million times since that these folks are fallible and have feet of clay. It’s not incomprehensible that you might find a role model in the celebrity world, but THESE GUYS ARE NOT ATHLETES/ACTORS/MUSICIANS BECAUSE THEY ARE NICE PEOPLE. They’re those things because they’re good at those skills. _You_ know that, but kids usually don’t. Kids look up to people like that because they’re impressed with what they do in the movies or on the field, and that’s the way they see them at first. So they look up to them based on that. It’s unlikely to change. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/87 "2009-08-17T17:14:19Z")
> [@DKW](#): > > I don’t endorse cruelty to dogs, but I fail to see how that’s any worse than raising countless animals every year for the sole purpose of slaughtering them for food, or for that matter shooting them in the wild. I don’t eat meat or wear leather. So that argument doesn’t carry much weight with me – I feel free to pile on Vick. You weren’t obnoxious about it, thanks, but that argument usually gets brought up by somebody to defend mistreatment of animals, and it’s often brought up quite nastily. In my thinking, an act of cruelty debases the actor, regardless of the level of respect you feel the victim deserves. > [@DKW](#): > > I’ve accepted the fact that the life of an animal simply isn’t as valuable as the life of a human, and to argue otherwise is simpleminded at best. What Vick did was wrong, but NOT as bad as domestic violence, or rape, or assault and battery, or failing to pay child support. Okay, that’s calling me simpleminded, so we’re moving into the nasty territory now, as usual. Let’s say you’re right about torture and cruelty mattering less if the victim is (legally) weak. Let’s assume that domestic violence is worse than torturing a dog. How _much_ domestic violence are we talking about? Because in most of the Vick conversations, the claim is that some other player smacked his wife once and was charged with domestic violence/battery, and that that should outweigh a multi-year-long criminal conspiracy to torture at least 60-70 dogs (not counting the “other side” dogs that fought as the “visiting team”) and kill more than eight of them. (Sorry to be so vague, the Vick case “statement of facts” states that eight were killed in one section, and then elsewhere says the parties agree to stipulate that “previously additional dogs were killed” without going into numbers.) So in your opinion a one-time (as far as we know) loss of temper resulting in a slap of a supposedly equal partner is _always_ worse than a large-scale criminal industrial enterprise running night and day for several years torturing and killing scores of trusting, helpless underlings? Just because the animal in the first case is a talking chimpanzee and not a dog? ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2009, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/88 "2009-08-19T22:19:30Z")
Here are some comparative sentences for fighting dogs (and associated breeding/training operations): Johnny Ray Lewis, Nov. 13, 2007, Houston County, AL: **102-year** prison sentence Walter T. Ware, 2005, AL: **40 years** in jail David Tant, November 2004, SC: **30-year** jail term Michal Vick, 2007, The Media: **2 years** for racketerring, nothing for animal cruelty Still think he’s served comparable time? . ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/89 "2009-08-20T01:39:55Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > Still think he’s served comparable time? Depends. What were the charges in the other cases and of what were they convicted? Did they plead out? Did they have competent counsel? Just because other sentences were greater than Vick’s, doesn’t mean Vick’s is the incorrect sentence. Donte Stallworth killed PEOPLE and was out in a matter of MONTHS. Are you saying dogs are worth more than people? I know you’re not, because you can’t base any value judgments on the amount of time given in a prison sentence. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/90 "2009-08-20T18:11:34Z")
For anyone interested, I have received replies from some of the Eagle’s sponsors. A few of them sound as if they are reconsidering their stance. Tastycake sent: > [@](#): > > On behalf of Tasty Baking Company I wanted to recognize your e-mail concerning the Michael Vick signing by the Philadelphia Eagles. Please understand that Tastykake found out about the signing at the same time as the general public and that Tasty Baking Company has no input into the Eagles management and their personnel decisions. Tastykake takes our consumers’ concerns very seriously and our consumer response and marketing departments have been working together to assess this decision closely. For over 95 years Tastykake has been a staple in Philadelphia and the surrounding community. We appreciate your interest in our affiliations and recognize the impact they have. While no decision has been made with respect to changes in our partnership with the Eagles, I have forwarded your note to our management as well as our marketing team for their consideration. Once again we appreciate your opinion and look forward to continuing to provide you the best products and programs possible. > Respectfully, > > Debra Heiser > > Consumer Affairs > Please consider the environment before printing this email. > > * * * > > Surprise someone with a Tastykake gift package. > Visit us at [www.tastykake.com](http://www.tastykake.com) and click “Shop Online” ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/91 "2009-08-20T18:19:59Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > For anyone interested, I have received replies from some of the Eagle’s sponsors. A few of them sound as if they are reconsidering their stance. I hate to break it to you, but that isn’t any indication of Tastykake reconsidering squat. That’s a classic “Thanks for your opinion, please buy our cakes, we’ll make our own minds up” letter. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/92 "2009-08-20T18:30:14Z")
> [@villa](#): > > I hate to break it to you, but that isn’t any indication of Tastykake reconsidering squat. That’s a classic “Thanks for your opinion, please buy our cakes, we’ll make our own minds up” letter. Of course. However, if enough consumers write, and if quarterly sales drop… Comcast’s reply was entirely unacceptable by comparison, and I am no longer a customer of theirs. It might have zero effect on the big picture, but I feel a bit better. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/93 "2009-08-20T19:40:19Z")
Early indications are the sponsors are staying… > **[Sponsors sticking with Eagles after Vick signing](https://www.espn.com/nfl/news/story?id=4411360)** > > The Philadelphia Eagles' sponsors are standing by their team. That doesn't mean anyone is ready to put extra money in Michael Vick's pockets. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/94 "2009-08-20T20:22:59Z")
Wonder how often he will be greeted with “Who let the Dogs Out”’. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/95 "2009-08-20T20:43:42Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > These guys are set up as role models for children. No, they aren’t. Children idolize football players because they’re impressive physical specimens (obviously I’m not counting players like Tony Siragusa and the like), they’re on TV, and they get paid millions of dollars to play a game for a living. Nobody sets them up to be role models except people who need a new way to phrase “Won’t somebody _ **please** _ think of the children?” To quote the late, great George Carlin, “If you’re kid needs a role model and you ain’t it, you’re both fucked.” ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/96 "2009-08-21T02:24:37Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Children idolize football players because they’re impressive physical specimens (obviously I’m not counting players like Tony Siragusa and the like The big guys are pretty impressive too. People seem to take for granted that the bigger lineman are just some fat dudes, but they’re impressive athletes in their own right, even if they don’t have a chiselled body. If you could plug any reasonably strong fat guy in as a DT, they wouldn’t be making millions of dollars, you could just hire people for minimum contracts. They all have impressive strength, quickness, and speed for their size. Shaun Rogers for example at 360 pounds is able to do a tomahawk dunk - the kind where you jump, spin 360 degrees in the air, and dunk a basketball. A lot of 300+ pounders can run 40 yard dashes in the 4.8 range which I’d imagine is much faster than an average non-athlete but fit person. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/97 "2009-08-21T12:38:16Z")
> [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](#): > > Depends. What were the charges in the other cases and of what were they convicted? > > Did they plead out? > > Did they have competent counsel? > > Just because other sentences were greater than Vick’s, doesn’t mean Vick’s is the incorrect sentence. > > Donte Stallworth killed PEOPLE and was out in a matter of MONTHS. > > Are you saying dogs are worth more than people? > > I know you’re not, because you can’t base any value judgments on the amount of time given in a prison sentence. How many people? Intentionally or by accident? Part of an organized crime ring? How competent was Stallworth’s counsel? Ok, having played that game, I will point out that _without doubt_ Vick’s dogfighting arrest is _more_ comparable to the three dogfighting arrests I cited above than it is to Stallworth’s arrest. Since your argument seems to be doubting the equivalency I suggest while positing equivalency with Stallworth’s case, I’ll take that round. Seriously, I never get the Stallworth defense. It’s not like I _want_ Stallworth in the league. Screw him, kick him out, send him back to jail! See, “humans are more important” isn’t an effective argument, since I’m more than happy to hammer Stallworth for killing humans. It’s just an argument people make as a distraction. I post in Vick threads about Vick. Post an “I hate Stallworth” thread and I’ll join you. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/98 "2009-08-21T13:56:28Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Early indications are the sponsors are staying… > > [http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4411360](http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=4411360) Well, hopefully that will change. I am spending a good bit of my free time contacting friends/acquaintances about boycotting sponsors and “early indications” are good. I am no longer a Comcast customer. I am not spending money on Pepsico products. I haven’t purchased a Tastycake product in many decades (not my thing), but I am now bad mouthing them as well. We’ll see. At least I feel good about where my money is going. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/99 "2009-08-21T14:57:18Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The big guys are pretty impressive too. People seem to take for granted that the bigger lineman are just some fat dudes, but they’re impressive athletes in their own right, even if they don’t have a chiselled body. If you could plug any reasonably strong fat guy in as a DT, they wouldn’t be making millions of dollars, you could just hire people for minimum contracts. > > They all have impressive strength, quickness, and speed for their size. Shaun Rogers for example at 360 pounds is able to do a tomahawk dunk - the kind where you jump, spin 360 degrees in the air, and dunk a basketball. A lot of 300+ pounders can run 40 yard dashes in the 4.8 range which I’d imagine is much faster than an average non-athlete but fit person. Oh, no doubt. But generally speaking, when kids idolize a football player, they pick a QB, RB, WR, or maybe a CB or safety. Rarely do you see a kid who wants to grow up to look like Kevin or Pat Williams. But I sure am glad to see that someone else out there recognizes the athletic ability of those fat bastards. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369/100 "2009-08-21T16:14:07Z")
Poor guys…[his troubles just keep mounting](http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/michael_vick_embarrassed). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/vicks-an-eagle-hide-your-beagle/506369.md?page=6)