# Victims of Abu Ghraib, you are not alone! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 12, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432 "2005-01-12T20:10:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/21 "2005-01-13T18:46:17Z")
Wow, I haven’t seen an OP so full to overflowing with such sheer horsehit, in well, a couple of days or so. What was done at Abu Graib had little or nothing to do with ‘keeping order’; it was a matter of US forces torturing, humiliating and making sport of prisoners who were helpless to resist, primarily for their own entertainment, under the singularly limp justification of ‘stressing’ some who might, who knows, actually had something to do with resistance to the US invasion. Some of those tortured thus may indeed have been guilty of _something_, but many apparently were not, and there is a system in place to try and punish those who are guilty, without resorting to the sort of extracurricular acvtivities that their guards practised with such gusto. I sincerely hope that fucking reactionary idiots like **New Iskander** are not in fact representative of the United States I choose to live in. If he IS the sort of person that that this country represents, there doesn’t seem to be all that much left here worth preserving. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/22 "2005-01-13T18:51:07Z")
I find **New Iskander’s** ideas intruiging, and I wish to subscribe to his newsletter. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/23 "2005-01-13T19:04:05Z")
**New Iskander** , you can pretend that all this outcry over Abu Ghraib is actually foolish liberals hating America and not realizing the threats facing our soldiers but you’re wrong. (And stupid and probably ugly, but that’s another issue altogether.) We signed the Geneva Convention not just because it promotes a basic level of human decency, but also because it protects our own soldiers from being tortured in this and future conflicts. They too can easily be described by the other side in the same rhetoric you use in your OP. They’ll have guns over their shoulders, grenades on their belt, and a past willingness to fight. Even if we hadn’t signed the Geneva Convention, it’s in our interests to treat Iraqi prisoners well. Many of them are innocent, picked up by mistake. All of them are Iraqis, with families. The more we take the high road and try to be good guys, the less support the insurgency will have, and fewer soldiers and civilians will be killed or maimed. It’s human maggots like you who started this war, and shitbags like you who are making it an unwinnable disaster, thanks to shit like Abu Ghraib. You aren’t fit to lick Saddam Hussein’s asshole. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/24 "2005-01-13T19:12:07Z")
Hey Isky, go and re-read World Eater’s post. Then re-read it. Then, sleep on it. Then re-read it again. When come back, bring humanity. Oh, and turning down your oh-so ignorant anti-Iraqi, Pro-US/Allies attitude. It’s boorish, stupid, classless, ugly, boorish, stupid…oh, well you get it. People who think like you do are ruining what we as a nation **were**. If I could confine you all to a camp and treat you as the Iraqi detainees were, trust me I would. You, as an innocent individual might have a different perspective coming out of the detention center than when you came into it. Sam ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/25 "2005-01-13T19:14:53Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Hey Isky, go and re-read World Eater’s post. Then re-read it. Then, sleep on it. Then re-read it again. When come back, bring humanity. Oh, and turning down your oh-so ignorant anti-Iraqi, Pro-US/Allies attitude. It’s boorish, stupid, classless, ugly, boorish, stupid…oh, well you get it. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/26 "2005-01-13T19:21:58Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Cite? Maybe this was an attempt at levity and the gravity of the attitude expressed within has turned my sense of humor off, but cite _for what?_ Sam ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/27 "2005-01-13T19:24:52Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > Maybe this was an attempt at levity and the gravity of the attitude expressed within has turned my sense of humor off, but cite _for what?_ My guess is the “oh, well you get it” part. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/28 "2005-01-13T19:27:10Z")
Yup. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/29 "2005-01-13T19:29:41Z")
Sorry, I should have bolded the appropriate part. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/30 "2005-01-13T19:29:51Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > My guess is the “oh, well you get it” part. You may be right because all signs point to “nuh-uh” for Iskander go _get_ anything… ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/31 "2005-01-13T20:23:18Z")
One more reason the OP is an idiot: Messrs. Hussein and Amin are **witnesses for the prosecution** , not plaintiffs. They were brought forward to testify on behalf of the prosecuting authority, which in this case, it seems, is the U.S. Army. Seems like that’s who **New Isk** should be mad at, if anyone. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/32 "2005-01-13T20:31:31Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > …we already have _control_ of the prison. We have control of prison where enemy combattants obtain guns and start shoot-outs with guards? This is not a controlled situation by any measure. > [@World Eater](#): > > How does piling up a bunch of nake Iraqis or making them masterbate maintain order? You know a better way? You wanna try giving out beads and chocolates? Why don’t you go try and see for yourself? What do you think had to be done? If those soldiers only left prisoners in peace, fed them regular meals, took them out for a walk and make sure of proper cell plumbing and ventilation, everything would be quite and peaceful? Those soldiers had to stay constantly involved with hostile desperate people inside closed environment. Those soldier had to maintain a position of supremacy and dominance. You ever watch sports? That’s what athletes do everyday on TV. They swagger and denigrate opponents to win the game. Except in this case those soldiers lives depended on this. > [@World Eater](#): > > Most of the tortured were innocent and later released. There is a trial going on. With prosecution going as far as introducing enemy combattant testimony. I’m sure if they could get innocent victim to testify, they would do it. Did they? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/33 "2005-01-13T20:41:31Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > If I could confine you all to a camp and treat you as the Iraqi detainees were, trust me I would. From aforesaid, may I conclude that you are not opposed to torture in principle, it’s only who to be tortured that makes a difference? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/34 "2005-01-13T20:54:44Z")
**New Iskander** , why do you hate America? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/35 "2005-01-13T21:08:38Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > We have control of prison where enemy combattants obtain guns and start shoot-outs with guards? This is not a controlled situation by any measure. When did that happen? > [@](#): > > You know a better way? Do you _really_ believe that shoving a lightstick up you know where is the best, most effective means of controlling a person? > [@](#): > > What do you think had to be done? If those soldiers only left prisoners in peace, fed them regular meals, took them out for a walk and make sure of proper cell plumbing and ventilation, everything would be quite and peaceful? Yes, yes I do. Even if they still hate our guts, we should do everything you mentioned, as it would be the right thing to do. > [@](#): > > Those soldiers had to stay constantly involved with hostile desperate people inside closed environment. Those soldier had to maintain a position of supremacy and dominance. You ever watch sports? That’s what athletes do everyday on TV. They swagger and denigrate opponents to win the game. Except in this case those soldiers lives depended on this. This isn’t a fucking game, there’s a huge difference. The longer these people hate us, the more they’ll blow things up, and the _longer_ we’ll have to remain there to maintain order. We’re not instilling fear, we’re instilling resentment. > [@](#): > > There is a trial going on. With prosecution going as far as introducing enemy combattant testimony. I’m sure if they could get innocent victim to testify, they would do it. Did they? What the hell are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/36 "2005-01-13T21:30:42Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > From aforesaid, may I conclude that you are not opposed to torture in principle, it’s only who to be tortured that makes a difference? No, only someone of your stripe would draw that conclusion. I believe everyone in the pit who has been in a thread about politics or Iraq that I have taken part in can concur that I do not think even torturing assholes like you, or militant Iraqis, or black men, or gay women, ad infinitum, is proper or excusable. I do think you need to have a little “correcting” of some sort and eventually, you’ll misstep and someone will do so. And I DO think if the shoe was on the other foot, you might feel a bit differently about the way the prisoners were treated and might, just _might_ understand true Americans and their outrage at the incidents at Abu ghraib. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/37 "2005-01-13T21:48:29Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > **New Iskander** , why do you hate America? I think a better question would be why does he hate freedom? ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/38 "2005-01-13T21:57:43Z")
P.S.- Isky, it may be unfathomable to you(and certainly not a popular idea on the SDMB), but I would even defend Saddam Hussein, or Osama Bin laden’s right to not be tortured while in U.S./International/Iraqi custody. Hell, I’d probably even stand up for a sorry sack of shit like you if put in the same position. Sam ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/39 "2005-01-13T22:31:29Z")
Although this is a troll thread, lets just make a few points. Its pretty clear that this complete and utter DOLT who happens to be the OP has never ever worked in a correctional facility. I do. You do not gain respect or control, or order through abuse, far from it, it is without any doubt whatsoever, the best way to lose it. If the DOLT cares to look up what happened at the Indaiana jail riot he would see this. The DOLT should realise that most of these prisoners have not been charged, never mind convicted, of any offence. The DOLT should also look at what happened in Northern Ireland when the British used detention without trial, otherwise known as INTERNMENT, and then follow the history of he Irish Republican Army terrorist organisation, what the DOLT will soon learn is that INTERNMENT was without much doubt, one of the best recruiting tools that this terrorist organisation ever had and this led to 30 years of terrorism whose effects and politcs are still being dealt with today, the policy was started in 1971. I wonder if the DOLT wants US soldiers to be in the firing line for that long, its estimated that at best the Irish Republican Army have perhaps 6 or 7 hundred actively involved, and several thousand sympathisers such as fund raisers. The Iraqi insurgency (some might say freedom fighters) has many times that number, one figure that has been bandied around is about 200 thousand. I just wonder how many people they could and will kill, how many will be US soldiers. The British had the advantage of a good intelligence network, and a common language and still they lost several hundred soldiers, and something like 1800 people in total died, now look at Iraq, there is a huge cultural and language barrier between Iraqis and US troops, and the numbers of insurgents, terrorists - call them what you will, are very much larger, and they are not short of support throughout the mid east and beyond right around to the Phillipines. Does the DOLT actually believe that torturing a miniscule number, relatively speaking, of suspected individuals will help endear the US to these peoples or do you think that maybe this will act as a superb recruiting tool ? > [@](#): > > Definition: \Dolt, n. [OE. dulte, prop. p. p. of dullen to dull. See > {Dull}.] > A heavy, stupid fellow; a blockhead; a numskull; an > ignoramus; a dunce; a dullard I think the comments by the DOLT support this use of the word, given the definition. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432/40 "2005-01-13T22:42:53Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > When did that happen?.. > > What the hell are you talking about? Did you read my OP? It was about a petty criminal and an enemy combattant giving evidence for prosecution in the trial of US serviceman. Please re-read. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/victims-of-abu-ghraib-you-are-not-alone/284432.md?page=3)